A HIRED CALLING!

Derek Wilson (00:00.719)
Alright, welcome to this episode of Rhythm Revlator is a hired colleague podcast. I've got Dr. Ryan Zeno, former sailor. Thanks for joining us, Ryan.

Ryan Zieno (00:10.517)
Yeah, thank you for having me.

Derek Wilson (00:12.615)
So Ryan, I'm going to go into asking questions about your career, pre -service, during service, after service, what got you to where you are now, and then talk about your dissertation and your work in self -efficacy and veterans. So can you tell me a little bit about the end, or what made you join the military, and then what made you leave, and how your exit was?

Ryan Zieno (00:34.807)
Yeah, great question. So before the military, my aspiration was law enforcement. It's really the only thing that I knew. So my uncle was a local city cop here in Norwich, New York. Saw him in uniform every Wednesday for spaghetti dinner at my grandmother's house. And that's just kind of what I set my mind on. And that's what I was going to do. then graduating high school, 18 years old, went to community college for a couple of years and tried to start interviewing.

And really at 20 years old wasn't getting too far in the process and some of the feedback, which is a good thing, I think, is, you're young, like, why don't you go get some life experience first, right? And then come back in a couple of years and try again. You know, and so I told myself like, hey, let's do that. And what are some of my options? And that's kind of when the military came into play. And so I was fortunately,

smart enough to be so forward thinking, I was thinking to myself, well, okay, like how can we use the military to set myself up for success? So whether I do a shorter contract, two, three, four years, or if I do make a career out of it, how can I really use that time most productively? And so I narrowed it down to some different occupational fields that I might be interested in, which then kind of narrowed it down to the Navy and the Air Force.

Air Force said I was a little too chunky, so very strict height and weight standards at that time. And like, even though I was lifting weights and stuff, like I gave measurements over the phone and they refused to talk to me. So was like, okay, well, I'll go talk to the Navy then. And was able to get in contact with a recruiter, was able to meet in person. And they're like, yeah, good to go. Like you meet all the basic, you know, stuff at first. So let's go to MEPS and do some further screening and talk it out.

Interestingly, I think I went to MEPs three times. Both the first, well, I think the first trip is mostly blood work lab screenings, right? But when it came time to like selecting a job, computer systems kept going down. And so finally I went back to Schenectady, New York, which is a couple hour drive. Computer was magically up that day and they said, well, you've got two options. You've got this thing called Hospital Corman in the medical field.

Ryan Zieno (03:01.567)
or you can go be a cook on a submarine. And I was like, well, I'm like not digging the sub thing and don't feel like cooking as a job. So tell me more about this, this corpsman gig. And so my recruiter who was, who was awesome, got me on the line with an independent duty corpsman who was able to kind of talk me through what they did and really sold me on this healthcare field, this idea of being a Navy corpsman. So I said, let's do it, signed up and did a five year obligation.

We'll probably talk about it, but I ended up tacking on an extra year to go hang out in Hawaii for a little bit. But that's how I entered the healthcare field, knowing little about healthcare before that, but quite the journey it was.

Derek Wilson (03:48.113)
So your career throughout the Navy, when did you exit? What was your rank and how was your transition process?

Ryan Zieno (03:56.087)
Yep, so I joined in 2013 December, exited December 2019, left as an E5 Petty Officer second class, Hospital Corman second class, 8404 Corman, which I think ended up being like L03 alpha after some backend changes with MOS NEC. yeah.

Derek Wilson (04:20.551)
So when you left, did you use the TAPS program? Did you hire our heroes? What was your process?

Ryan Zieno (04:27.935)
Yeah, so at about the year mark is when I identified that I wanted to get out. So it was a pretty pivotal moment. I didn't get selected for our commissioning program. And I also didn't get the orders that I wanted. I was gunning for Italy and didn't get it. So I made the decision, you know, this is going to be my exit. Went through TGPS in Hawaii. So I had a phenomenal instructor there.

but also took advantage of some outside programs, were awesome. So I went through American corporate partners, got partnered up with a nurse executive at Kaiser Permanente. So Margie Harrier, who was a phenomenal mentor, did that for 12 months, made a few veterati calls, connected with some folks at my current organization, connected with some other folks through veterati. That was an awesome resource.

I would say those are the two most important ones when it comes to mentorship and kind of the things that I learned that I should be thinking about, or maybe I was thinking about it, but they added some different perspective. And I think those were key. I also did do the IVMF CAPM project management course at Syracuse University. Did not end up pursuing the actual CAPM cert through PMI.

but retained a lot of information and feel like I've kind of used some of that content in my work.

Derek Wilson (06:01.351)
Great, so you were enlisted 2013 -2019, you finished your bachelor's degree while you were enlisted or did do that while you were out?

Ryan Zieno (06:08.641)
did that while I was enlisted, yep, and finished most of my masters while on active duty through transition. I actually, this is a good point. I lined up the internship I needed for my master's degree completion with my SkillBridge internship at United Health Group in Optum. So two birds with one stone or two birds with one scone, whatever you prefer to say there.

Derek Wilson (06:35.505)
Very good. the well -med medical management, that was your first role out of the military. How did you fall in that role?

Ryan Zieno (06:42.175)
Yep. What was the question? Sorry.

Derek Wilson (06:45.457)
How did you land that role?

Ryan Zieno (06:47.329)
So I was pursued a little bit by Eddie Dunn, if that name is familiar at all. Eddie, who's incredibly passionate about this space, had called me after I had done some posting on LinkedIn about what I was looking to do. And Eddie pursued me a little bit, called me, gave me the gist of United Health Group, which is where WellMed falls under the Optum umbrella of United Health Group. Initially said, okay, well, that's cool. I'm gonna keep looking around a little bit. And then Eddie just kept...

hitting my inbox and he was like, hey, how's the transition going? How are things? And so just kept talking to Eddie Dunn and ended up landing a SkillBridge fellowship while the program was still pretty new. I wasn't the first fellow, but I was one of the first few that went through United Health Group's SkillBridge program.

Derek Wilson (07:40.753)
So you're still with that company that had a at the large organization at the senior organization now, is that accurate? So you've grown within them for like, what's that, four or five years now?

Ryan Zieno (07:46.807)
Correct, yep.

Ryan Zieno (07:51.659)
We'll be going on five years officially in November. I like to count my SkillBridge time a little bit. September, HR purposes though, they said I was hired in November.

Derek Wilson (07:58.724)
yeah, now that's...

Derek Wilson (08:04.995)
So you've made four and a half, five years, but how you count it at the same organization that hired you coming out and you've actually progressed up, that's fantastic. So you talked about your bachelors and your masters and then you went and got a doctorate at Baylor. So what shaped that decision?

Ryan Zieno (08:27.128)
Another really good question because as we kind of started the interview, I talked about how I was going to go into law enforcement. so for me, like I probably was going to cap out at a bachelor's degree at most, never thought I would go beyond that, but just getting into healthcare, having some phenomenal mentors and recognizing that you have this awesome thing called the post 9 -11 GI bill that really funds a significant portion of your education.

started poking around a little bit and said, okay, well, we just finished the master's. Like I have this GI Bill, let's not let that go to waste. I couldn't give it to somebody at that point, couldn't give it to anybody else. So let's use it. And I started poking around some different programs, started thinking about what do I want to see with my education? How do I want that to influence my career and what I'm able to do? So I thought about a doctorate in health administration.

That was a pretty good path. was considering a doctorate in public health because I had a master's degree in public health. But then I told myself, I don't want to do the same thing just at a higher level. Like I want to find some another interesting angle that I can take education and build a career out of it. And so I landed on this doctorate in education, learning and organizational change program. I looked at Baylor, I looked at Vanderbilt and there were a couple other institutions that had it.

was living in Houston, Texas at the time, Baylor, Waco was close by, so I submitted to Baylor and got accepted and just have found it such a cool way to take different avenues of education, kind of pull them together and also be able to use both the human services in undergrad, the public health mindset that I developed in my masters, and then take this doctorate in learning and organizational change.

and apply that to both my career, but also the things that I do outside of Optum and some of the things that I'm involved in with the school district and a board I'm on. So that's how I got there. It was awesome.

Derek Wilson (10:34.119)
And so congratulations on completing that a few months ago. It's a big accomplishment. So you went into your dissertation focused on veterans and employment and self -efficacy, which we share that. tell me a little bit about why you chose, first off, what is the title of your dissertation? Why did you choose that? And then what was your strategy? What happened? What'd you learn? What'd you find out?

Ryan Zieno (10:38.762)
Yeah, thank you.

Ryan Zieno (10:58.593)
Yeah, so the title of the dissertation is Self -Efficacy and Transition Success. know, Baylor did an awesome job introducing our, you know, they do this with every cohort, but our cohort to grounding research in a theoretical framework, right? And so really got thinking kind of two pieces here. So even before the framework, you know, I knew Baylor was going to be at least three years, if not more.

So I want to pick a research topic that is going to stay consistent because if I do something related to my job and my job changes, that jeopardizes me finishing the program on time. So what can I think about that is going to stay true no matter what? And I was a veteran and I'm going to be a veteran now until I die. So like, let's focus this research on some veteran issues.

started poking around the theoretical frameworks, really went back and forth on some different ideas of like, what did I really want to explore? What questions did I have about my own transition? What was I seeing on LinkedIn and different stories of other veterans and service members thinking about transition? And then I kind of just landed on this framework of, do you think you can do it?

And how strong is that belief and what makes you think you can do it? What makes you think you can produce the outcome you're looking for? And that's where I landed on Bandura's theory of self -efficacy and had a lot of fun exploring that and applying that framework to military transition. It just felt like such a great fit. I'm glad to see that you also used the same framework for a lot of your research too, because I think it's a good one.

I think there's still room to explore and I imagine you and I will be talking about that long after this podcast.

Derek Wilson (12:52.571)
Yeah, I certainly hope so. in your dissertation, excuse me, there's no voice. So what were your recommendations and what did you come up with?

Ryan Zieno (13:05.504)
Yeah, a lot of recommendations. So I had this idea in the back of my mind the whole time too. And I think the research, my study really did kind of reinforce this in my mind that building self -efficacy takes time. And so a lot of my recommendations, you know, at first are like, let's go connect with different veteran serving organizations. Thinking about like, if we already have a veteran,

that maybe has lower self -efficacy, how can we produce or deliver some sort of intervention or program to try and improve that in the moment, address the issue at the veteran level. But then I started thinking about, well, it takes a long time potentially to build like really strong efficacy as it relates to what you need to be successful in transition. So.

got thinking about the MWR, the Morale Welfare and Recreation Organizations. so MWR, and I know the branches all call them different things, but when I was stationed on Kaneohe Bay with the Marine Battalion, whatever the equivalent organization is, had like a financial readiness type workshop, I guess you would call it, counseling. And so that started reminding me like, hey, there are these existing services

existing programs that serve as a really good opportunity to build self -efficacy while someone is in the military. And that's a resource that they can access from day one. The moment you get on base, you can go get a financial literacy or financial wellness workshop with MWR or some other organization. so another group of organizations that I haven't made a lot of movement yet.

you know, just between work and family and doing all sorts of stuff. But I would like to see us really partner with those organizations that are serving military service members and think about what is the transition to come, whether it's a couple months down the road or potentially several years, and where can we start increasing that self -efficacy over the course of several months to several years in these different areas that are ultimately going to benefit transition.

Ryan Zieno (15:30.175)
So like financial success is a huge one. Career transition is an element of that, just to name a couple that, you know, these are resources that exist in some elements of MWR or other organizations. And then the third outcome is just continue the research. This is like the tip of the iceberg. And I don't know how you feel about your study, but the application of self -efficacy as a framework in military transition and what it takes to meaningfully increase.

efficacy and service members and therefore veterans is just a huge undertaking and there's still a lot more questions I have. And so continue the research, keep studying this and then develop the programs, develop the services to implement and increase that efficacy. So really long answer, but those are kind of the three outcomes that I was, the three groups that I was looking to take the results to and do something with.

Derek Wilson (16:27.685)
Interesting take on the MWR and the Marine Corps, this MCCS, but I don't remember people really using those services. We use MWR to go rent equipment, to go do fun stuff. you know, kind of like how, you know, it wasn't always cool to be smart. It wasn't cool to go and use those services. You know, why weren't you doing other things, other Marine things versus planning for the future? We can go down that rabbit hole and spend a lot of time there, but come back a little bit and talk about why do...

Ryan Zieno (16:37.494)
Right.

Derek Wilson (16:56.999)
Why do veterans or service members even need to be trained in self -efficacy? What are we talking about here? These are people who joined the military, they volunteered to go shoot guns and do crazy things and have these really hard jobs and be soldiers, Marines, sailors, airmen, and be able to defend themselves and others. So why would they need self -efficacy and why don't they have it?

Ryan Zieno (17:20.577)
Yeah, and to that point, you know, we join the military to do the military things and very rarely is someone joining the military with the end in mind or the transition in mind. So when you join the military, you go through boot camp, you go through your occupational training, you do all these things, you hit one duty station, you hit two duty stations, you've built this efficacy around your military related tasks. So I can be a good corpsman, I can be a good infantryman.

But when it comes time to transition, how have I applied my efficacy building to transition? How do I know that I can be successful? It's a whole separate set of things that you have to be worried about. And so one of the things that I would agree with Albert Bandura, Dr. Bandura, who gave us this theoretical framework, don't try to pee.

too general in self -efficacy, especially when you try to measure it because efficacy is task or domain specific. So if I'm a highly efficacious corpsman, that doesn't mean I'm going to be a highly efficacious transitioning service member. so efficacy is different in those different contexts. So to your point, yeah, we're confident, we get good at our jobs, we're highly efficacious when it comes to being a service member and what it is that we need to do for that.

But how often are we thinking about transition in mind? And then by the time it becomes relevant to us, how many months do we have left to go when in fact some of these things really take years to kind of meaningfully impact over the course of long -term things like financial success and understanding what a career transition or a job transition looks like? Great question.

Derek Wilson (19:12.145)
Great answer. Did you go into group efficacy at all in your research and kind of peel apart or think about how we get things done as military members, how things get done in the corporate world? The camaraderie aspect comes into group efficacy versus self -efficacy. But I think that, it's, you know, what do you call something, right? But I don't know if we understand.

the difference between group efficacy and self -efficacy when we're still enlisted and still going through it. We are responsible for going and doing our own things, getting them all accomplished, but you still have a plan to go follow. To some degree, you have a checkout sheet that tells you all the things you're supposed to go do. so talk a little bit about group efficacy and how it's different.

Ryan Zieno (19:57.355)
Yeah, so this is not an avenue that I explored in my research, but it is interesting. I imagine you're a really good thought partner here. So I forget if it was your third interview. It's one that you've been trying to watch these leading up to this moment and I'll continue to watch, but you did touch on this and the idea that in groups and in cohorts, when we're learning and experiencing things together, it's really effective.

But I really focused on the individualized aspect of transition, knowing that at the end of the day, while you might have resources and you might have people to lean on, you as an individual are ultimately accountable for your own transition. And so I really focused in on the self -efficacy from an individualized perspective. But you bring up a really good point because in some of my interviews, in one of the questions that I asked my participants, I did six interviews.

was, you know, did you have a colleague you transitioned with or transitioned before you that you were able to, you know, vicariously live through that experience and kind of see how they did it? And a lot of my participants were like, yeah, you know, I know somebody transitioned, but I wasn't really strongly connected to them or yeah, I had a good buddy transition out, but I didn't really pay attention. I didn't ask him how it was or what I should be thinking about.

So you're onto something on this social or group efficacy point of how can we be tapping into that as well more effectively for transition because you don't really get true, I'll try not to be too assertive here, but I don't imagine you get truly good group efficacy from a three -day TGPS or TAP course. That's something you wanna build up over time.

Derek Wilson (21:55.375)
Yeah, so that's a great point. So, group efficacy comes from the people that you serve with over that period of time, and then they come and go, right? But then you go to a cohort program, this is three to five days. You may build some weak ties, but you're not gonna build any strong ties. they don't currently, maybe they are now, make an effort to increase that stickiness of the relationships there because you're transitioning individually. But it is good to have somebody to call.

three weeks out, three months out, hey, how you doing to check in on, right? So then let's come back to one of your recommendations on the MWR and the financial management being a huge change, leaving the military. You always think you're gonna make more money when you get out. The job's gonna pay you more, but that's not reality. Even if you did find a job that paid you the same, the taxes would be different. So there's a lot there that...

I was always interested in money. was studying to be a finance major. I was pretty financially intelligent at the time, but it was still hard to transition and manage the finances if you have a family or if you're not good with money. we know both those things happen a lot in the military and maybe both at one time. So what's your tips on the financial management aspect?

Ryan Zieno (23:16.575)
Yeah, this is such an important area too. Mostly because my belief is it's really hard to truly understand it until you're living it. there are, you know, when I think about I was in my living room in Hawaii with my wife, we had a, you know, our only child at that point, trying to use some different calculators, you know, regarding cost of living and tax implications based on my earnings. How is that different from

being active duty to earning the same salary in the private sector and what are some areas that we want to live and the calculators out there, you if I want to think, if I make 77 ,000 and bang them to New York and how does that compare to like somewhere in Minnesota, you know, the calculators will get you pretty close as far as tax withholdings and you can drill down to a generally what is a pretty accurate number, but.

Until you are really living in the moment, it's really hard to appreciate what those results were trying to tell you. At least it was for me and I imagine it is for many people. Some people probably are wizards at it and they can run the numbers and be like, okay, this is what it'll be and that is just the plain reality for them. But for me, was once you're actually living in the moment and you see the money roll in and you really understand what your bills are like.

because some bills will fluctuate, rent might stay steady for 12 months, but food and electricity might go up and down, right? Living it is tough. And so how do you build that efficacy during the military is kind of the question here, especially when so much in the military is provided either through a service at no cost or it's provided as an allowance.

How does that translate to life after the military and through transition? Which was kind of an interesting piece of my research and my participants was the folks that were, I had a couple of participants that were married and so they received a basic, they received a housing allowance and so they did purchase a home at their duty station. So they had the funds and the steady income, they were able to make that purchase.

Ryan Zieno (25:38.379)
financially they were in a place where they know they have this allowance, right? And so they can put their money practices in place. But then there's also this home buying process, right? Which is another element of efficacy. But that's different. Well, let me first finish that thought there. So you have the service member that purchased a home while they're active duty, they've gone through it. And so when they exit the military, they've already purchased a home before. So this isn't that much different. I have to get my pay stubs, I gotta get my bank statements.

Compare that to a junior officer or an enlisted service member that was never married and likely did not receive a housing allowance and most likely did not buy a home before. And just how do you grasp and understand what it really takes to save up for a home? What does it really take to purchase a home or invest for your retirement when those things are just feel so foreign in active duty?

How are you supposed to get ready for that? And I'm rambling a bit here, but I think it does all kind of tie into this theme of like, how do we leverage existing resources? How can we think about our lives in active duty in a way that's gonna help us build efficacy for transition and for our lives as veterans?

Derek Wilson (26:58.855)
Great answer and thank you for that. I want to bring you over to your veteran serving organizations now. There's over 50 ,000 of them at this point in time. And if you include, those are just nonprofit 501Cs. If you include state, federal, local agencies, there's over 500 ,000 veteran serving organizations. And I talk about a sea of goodwill, The dissertation, the research.

There's too many that exist, there's confusing names, crossover missions, and poor communication across the different organizations. So what was the focus of your veteran -serving organization channel in your dissertation?

Ryan Zieno (27:43.563)
You know, I didn't spend a whole lot of time there because to your point, there are so many different organizations and there's just, there is the overlap, there's so much to pick and choose from. And then there's the aspect of quality, which is important. You have to make sure that you're not just selecting any 501c3 that exists, you're looking for a quality VSO that's gonna help you. But my basic recommendations were like,

think about some of those national organizations. You've got things like American Legion, VFW, or just like two that come off the bat, right, is two big popular ones. But like look at some national, like broad organizations and think about the resources they have, you know, consider a membership if that's in your alley. But then based on where you want to go as a transitioning service member, can you find anything that's a little bit localized?

So can you find something that's in an area like Syracuse, New York? You have IVMF, which has resources and there are other organizations in the Syracuse area that you can lean on for support as a veteran serving organization, like Clear Path for Veterans comes to mind. But then also be tapping into those other resources, LinkedIn, there's a huge network of people talking there all the time about different organizations, sometimes quality checking them.

sometimes recommending them. So while I didn't spend a lot of time in the VSO realm of, you know, what do we do next? That was kind of the general theme of what I walked away there of what to do and how to look and who to look for.

Derek Wilson (29:26.215)
Do you think VSOs today, the traditional, the larger ones, are still organized and responding appropriately? I ask this because there's the congressionally chartered VSOs and the non -congressionally chartered. And congressionally chartered VSOs are your larger, your traditional ones, the DAV, AMBEDS, American Legion, who literally have to have an act of Congress to change their business plans because they are congressionally chartered. But now we see the other nonprofits.

and existence now that can do things more nimble and a little faster. And then these other organizations that exist that I think aren't even nonprofit that exist to use to, what's the word, to expand the SkillBridge program, to help people like you go get in SkillBridge program and get jobs, but they get paid on the backside for providing that service to a company. It's no longer a nonprofit. They are for profit.

they're providing a service. So it's kind of a hybrid, but I feel like some of those organizations, what's the word, portray that they are nonprofit in reality, they're making some money on the backside.

Ryan Zieno (30:40.225)
Right. Yeah, so I think there's a lot there to unpack. So I think the first part of the question I heard was, do I think that those larger organizations are structured the right way to provide the support that the transitioning service member and the veteran of today needs? And I think that's a good question. Love watching like Liz Hartman, hopefully I'm getting her name right. American Legion, talking about it all the time on LinkedIn. Love getting.

bits from her about what the Legion is doing, raises a lot of good points. One of the things that I think is interesting about the American Legion, I can't remember where I heard it. I feel like it was a CCME conference, I might be wrong. So Council of College Military Education, I'm going to put that in a chat or an email. But the Legion produced with some other organizations, nonprofits and research bodies, what I

believe was called the Makai Report, was, man, it's been a while since I looked at it, like workforce development, certifications, pathways, and that felt like so relevant and such like a great study and great recommendations. And it's like, why don't I hear about more things like the Makai Report from American Legion? it's anytime I get a magazine, it's just like,

doesn't feel so relevant. It's a commentary on a policy about something. And I'm not saying that that's not important, but that doesn't feel timely to me for a transitioning service member getting ready to be a veteran. So I don't know that some of those larger organizations are currently well positioned to do the work that we need done now for transitioning service members and the newest veterans. Then you dig into nonprofits, which I think are, to your point, very nimble.

able to kind of act quickly assuming they have the resources and you know both in people and funds and whatever they need to operate but those non -profits I think are super important. It's just the quality issue we have to look at. do they have the right people at the home? Do they have the right resources? Are they truly effective and really have a plan or is this just a passion project from somebody? And listen, follow your passion, help where you can.

Ryan Zieno (33:04.811)
but just make sure that your passion project isn't blinding you to whether or not you're providing a really good resource and a quality resource. And then to your final point, those other organizations, the for -profit organizations that are making money on the backend and people have to pay the bills. And if you can do that in a for -profit model where you can really look at your organization and...

cash in and cash out, what are the outcomes? Can you be transparent and operate as a for -profit? I don't think it's impossible to do that, but it always raises the question though, when you compare it to something that's congressionally chartered or a nonprofit, you will probably have to defend yourself a lot more than some of those other organizations. So I would say for -profit isn't inherently bad, but I would take a look and like, hey, what are their outcomes?

How transparent are they with the money that's coming in and how is it really helping folks knowing that everybody is trying to make a living, keep the lights on and put food on the table. So money isn't inherently evil, but those organizations, do think I would put a magnifying glass over those for sure, but I wouldn't rule them out.

Derek Wilson (34:24.455)
Yeah, that's a great way to put it. think there's a lot of good organizations who were in that space who were, who are doing the right thing. I'm not, I'm definitely not saying that the nonprofit model is the right way. My business is a for -profit business. I believe the ones that like I think the one Eddie Dunn operates is for -profit pretty sure candy Thelma's is for -profit and 50 strong in that they are providing a service getting paid by the government to help the transition space. So we can compare the numbers of what it costs the government to.

transition to somebody, think it's like $5 ,762 versus what, higher heroes USA and the call of duty endowment says their cost was like five 62, like, you know, a 10th, right? So, so what's, what does that look like? What's that curve looking like now? So it's kind of why I'm interested in that space. And again, having 50 ,000 nonprofits is a tremendous number and you know, go to guide star and figure out who's doing what it's a whole nother rabbit hole to go down.

But so you've, you've, you left the military in a good way, in a good role that you've grown into. Not trying to tell you, know, not trying to ask you, you know, when are you going to leave or anything like that, but what's, what's, what's the future like for you? What's next? You've already got a doctorate, you're in a company you love. What's after?

Ryan Zieno (35:45.717)
Yeah, it's a good question. know, as our cohort was wrapping up our program at Baylor, it was the big question on, think everybody's minds of like, okay, like this is supposed to open doors and maybe I got to go knock on a few myself. What do those look like? you know, I didn't have a, it was a pursuit of like interest and fun. And I had the GI bill as a resource. So.

didn't go into it with a goal in mind necessarily outside of like completing the program. But now that it's done, I've had a few months to kind of relax a little bit and not worry about homework or working on my study and writing a dissertation. It's a good question and it's one I've been reflecting on. So my current role at Optum is really interesting, working with great clients, working with a great team.

But at what point do you start asking yourself like, okay, what is the next step? And is it at Optum? The capabilities of Optum and career development are massive as a Fortune Four, I think now. Tons of different pathway opportunities and we have immense resources to build our careers at United Health Group. Very good chance, my next role is there, but always open to what else?

might fit this idea of learning and organizational change and learning and development is something I've been interested in. is there a role? We'll see. I will say though that I've been able to apply that knowledge from the EDD program in the nonprofit space a little bit. So I sit on a board of a local nonprofit here called Aunt Mary's House. Really looking to kind of put that skillset, the learning and development.

skill set to use as a board member there and some programming. Also very active with our parent teacher association locally with our district and so I've been a pretty vocal parent involved in some pretty cool exercises, district -wide exercises, some of them focused on some of the lower elementary grades. But also started teaching and so I just started teaching a few weeks ago with SUNY Morrisville.

Ryan Zieno (38:04.315)
here in rural New York and that's been super fun so far. So, you know, I didn't even answer your question, but I think the point is there is that I've got tons of opportunity at Optum, but I'm also able to kind of divide up and put some energy into some different things that keep me pretty satisfied. So I've really enjoyed teaching so far. Hope I'm invited back next term. And so I guess that's a piece of

advice that I would give out and this is good for veterans and this is good for even non -veterans is if you start getting the itch to move, take a moment and reflect and it's like, well, do you, why do you think that itch is there? And I got the itch a couple months ago, but then I had to really reflect myself and say, you know, the total comp isn't bad. It's taking care of my family. I'm working with good people and interested in what I'm working on.

So is it that I need to move in my company or would I like to spend some of that free time outside of work doing something that's maybe interesting, which I think interview three, Dr. Washington, if I'm remembering right, kind of alluded to that same idea.

Derek Wilson (39:14.703)
Yeah. Yeah. So you, answered the question and you did a great segue and you tied in a precept. So that was like a, like a huge trophy for that one. So, yeah, you, found ways to, to, to fix that itch outside of your career, which is great. And so, and, and I was going to ask you, you know, so one of my favorite things in my, my program was an article we had to read about, was written by an anesthesiologist talking about how do people at the top of the profession train?

What do they get training? Who do you learn from? Talks about people like, you know, the people at the pinnacle of their performance in athletics, LeBron James, who does he get training from? Well, he has coaches. also watches his own film. He watches his own highlights. He evaluates himself. And then he goes and teaches others, right? So the teaching of others sharpens your skills all the time. So you're going to go and you're doing that now. So that is, you know, how you're training yourself. It is how you're going to get better. But so at this level, no, no, you.

Ryan Zieno (39:45.345)
Hmm.

Derek Wilson (40:13.051)
You've used resources already. You mentioned a couple of nonprofits already, but now you're a doctor, right? So now what resources do you use to go get help? Cause you can't be on your own still. You start to be self efficacious, but there is some still a group involved in the situation.

Ryan Zieno (40:29.495)
Yeah, so where do I go now? think, unfortunately, this is also like a huge perk of like now being an adjunct instructor at a state school in New York is having continued access to different libraries and databases to be able to go poke around the research without the barrier of money, right? Downloading a 12 page journal for $75. However, that's justified as beyond me.

But I will probably look into those areas and really have to take some time to reflect on what is next. And so I've gave a super long answer, which kind of landed on like I'm pretty happy right now. But I do think I will need to push myself at some point. so that is that taking on a higher level role and opt in that involves direct reports is that taking on.

myself as a client manager and taking on at some point maybe some P &L. Or is it not even in that realm? Is it somewhere else? Is it doing something else? I think right now it's going to be a lot of reflection, but I will love to tap into from a learning perspective for myself.

research and kind of what questions can we ask of the things that we're interested in? Is there research out there? And how might that even find its way to maybe a job change? Who knows? So my answer there, which is a little ambiguous, really is, you know, have to do some reflection to be able to better answer that question. So ask me again in six months. But excited to kind of tap into, you know, the

the doctoral program and hopefully anybody can find this when they go to college is you can dig a little bit deeper. And so now I have this toolbox, I've dug really deep in my thinking. So how can I take that and just apply it to myself now and not necessarily a cohort of participants that I'm studying, but do the deep work on myself to be able to come up with that answer.

Ryan Zieno (42:42.249)
Again, beat around a little bit to get to the end there, but I think reflection and then really, really deep work doing the research and investigating what opportunities there are.

Derek Wilson (42:58.609)
Great answer and it sounds like you've really figured out how to leverage your doctorate experience and it's the way to really keep growing and maintain their lifelong learning. I look forward to talking to you again in six months, like you said, to see where you're, where you figure out you want to go to. Anything you want to talk about before we end this session here?

Ryan Zieno (43:16.597)
Wow.

Ryan Zieno (43:23.969)
You know, I had some stuff written down and I think we'll probably have another conversation at some point. one of the things that, and maybe we expand more on this in a future conversation, but when I look at my life today, so little of it is centered around anything to do with my military service and the veteran aspect of my identity. So I guess I'll just plant the seed here. We won't, because we can talk about this for...

20, 30 minutes easily. But as you're thinking about life after the military, really come to terms with the fact that you can be proud of your service. I am not saying you shouldn't be or can't be. But be ready to come to terms with that that is a chapter in your life. And while it has influenced who you are going to be 10 years from now, it does not have to be what your life is centered on when you exit the military.

And so I think many aspects of my transition were, I won't use seamless, but incredibly easy because I was able to take that uniform off and really just be Ryan and figure out what is it that I'm interested in, get involved in the PTA, go find some nonprofits that I can put my skillset towards and improve my community. Don't be afraid to take the uniform off.

And I'm not just talking physically, but when it comes to mentally and understanding how that ties into your identity, I think is a huge conversation to have with yourself and you and I probably for a future date. I'll be curious if any of your future guests expand on identity at all. Emily Knitter would be a hugely great person to talk to. I can send you her information if you're not aware of who she is. Just finished her PhD in psychology.

she would be a good person to talk to.

Derek Wilson (45:26.96)
They'll take the referral, but I'm also interested in discussing that with you in our second episode about identity and taking the uniform off. always in this topic, I always my brain always goes back to that the veteran standing at the store wearing the shirt and back of it says, disgruntled veteran, don't approach some stupid thing like that. Like that is terrible. Like you're not helping yourself or anybody else. Right. So look forward to discussing that on our next episode.

Ryan Zieno (45:44.021)
Yep.

Ryan Zieno (45:51.829)
Yeah, certainly. Yeah, I'll just leave it. I was gonna say like leave the grunt style in the closet, just put it in the bottom drawer. But there are a couple of cool shirts out there, but yeah, to your point, take it off. Yeah, we'll talk about that in the future.

Derek Wilson (46:08.871)
Alright Ryan, you have a great night and congrats on having your kids asleep by 7 o 'clock. That is a parenting win. Good for you.

Ryan Zieno (46:15.317)
Well, that's there. They're in bed, but they're knocking on the door asking for that extra drink of water or hey, what day is today? And it's like it doesn't matter because in four hours it's going to change, dude. So go to bed. yeah.

Derek Wilson (46:30.097)
Great job despite their continued kids being kids, man. But you have a good night. Talk to you soon.

Ryan Zieno (46:36.183)
and you as well, take care.