A HIRED CALLING!

Derek (00:01.411)
So today I'm joined by Michelle Gundy on Rizome Revelator's Hired Calling Podcast. Dr. Michelle Gundy, how are you?

Michelle Gundy (00:07.999)
I'm good, how are you?

Derek (00:10.147)
Fantastic. It's a great day here in San Diego. Where are you located?

Michelle Gundy (00:14.143)
I'm in New York. I'm up in Yonkers. Yeah.

Derek (00:16.515)
wow, okay, so you're at least three hours ahead. How's the weather?

Michelle Gundy (00:20.959)
It's beautiful. It's finally sunny out. We've had a bunch of rain and I'm sure it's not as beautiful as San Diego though. I'm definitely envious there.

Derek (00:29.091)
Yeah, it's definitely hard to leave here. So this podcast thing is a new thing that started, you know, spawned from my research in veterans under employment. And I think it's very important for veterans to hear from other veterans about how they've succeeded and where they get to in life and how. But you have a doctorate from USC also on top of all this. I'm wearing my shirt for us today, Fight On. And...

Michelle Gundy (00:38.975)
Absolutely.

Michelle Gundy (00:51.711)
do.

Right on.

Derek (00:55.395)
I want to get from your time in the Army, I think that last year up until to where you are now and tell us how you did it, what you're still doing. I'm really interested to hear about your dissertation. And I know you were working in trauma -advised policing and I'm sure that I don't know that know what that is. I would love to hear about that a bit too when you get to that point. So I'll stop talking now and let you tell us, so, you know, a bit about yourself.

Michelle Gundy (01:23.711)
Well, first of all, I've been out of the military. It seems like, you know, it's been a full lifetime outside. I joined in 2002 right after 9 -11. I was an inexperienced college kid. I grew up in Las Vegas, Nevada, and the school district there did not prepare me for the real world. So I got to my first semester of college, and I was just absolutely not prepared. I knew I needed to grow up fast. So 9 -11 had just happened. It seemed like a great time to join the military, and I knew I needed some discipline and some confidence and some real -world experience.

So, joined the military, joined the army and spent five years in and I really thought I was gonna be a lifer. Unfortunately, our unit, the best leader I've ever served under, our first sergeant was in this first round ground, he left, he went to the cab and he became a command sergeant major eventually and our unit just sort of fell apart. So, I really got some first -hand experience on exceptional leadership followed by just terrible leadership.

And so, you know, under his guidance, he said, you know, hey, this is just not a place for you anymore. This is I'm not comfortable with you staying in the unit. I think it's time to ETS. So I ETS to help me find my first real world job. I did ballet at a casino in Vegas. He actually got me that job. And that was sort of how I transitioned out. And I worked in hospitality for a few years and I'm sort of lost. Didn't know what I wanted to do.

Derek (02:27.459)
you

Michelle Gundy (02:48.415)
and then finally decided to use the GI Bill, go back to school and, you know, get started. So I worked for about 20 years in communications and decided in 2019 -ish that I wanted to doctorate and found a program at USC, went back and got my doctorate in organizational change and leadership. And yes, you're correct, the focus of my dissertation was trauma -informed policing and so I've been working in policing and public safety ever since.

Derek (03:17.795)
So thank you for that overview. It's interesting. I want to dive into some of the details. So we were in at the same time. You got out in 07 as well. Did you use any veteran support organizations for transition support whenever you got out?

Michelle Gundy (03:22.143)
Yeah.

Michelle Gundy (03:27.039)
Mm -hmm.

Michelle Gundy (03:32.415)
I didn't even know they existed back then. If they did, I don't even know if they were around when we started and we got out. My only transition service was my first sergeant getting me my first job. So no, I used nothing. I was just out there sort of weaning.

Derek (03:50.755)
What about the TAP program? Do you guys have a TAP program when you transition down? The government provided to which, or the transition classes, how to do a resume, how to do an interview. These are your VA benefits available and so forth.

Michelle Gundy (04:05.855)
I've never even heard of it until just now.

Derek (04:09.411)
Well, it definitely has changed. There were nonprofits out there for us then. I didn't use any either, but there are definitely more now. There's over 50 ,000, according to Jack Star. Well, there's a book about it titled, The Sea of Goodwill, where there's pros and cons to having so many, because some veterans report just being overwhelmed with who to go to, what to do, because there's so many overlapping.

Michelle Gundy (04:18.047)
Okay.

good.

Derek (04:38.339)
missions and names and there's a lot of issues with some organizations not living up to what they say and claim. So it's a messy place right now, but there are some really great ones that exist. So then your first job when you got out was valet at a casino in Vegas after. So your unit in the army, what was your role?

Michelle Gundy (05:00.703)
We started, I started as a 31 Lima, so I was K1 wire, but as soon as I got back from AIT, as soon as I got back to my unit, we transitioned from K1 wire to SATCOM. So I went to, I think two or three, I don't even remember now, it's been so long, but two or three additional MLS schools, 31, I think Romeo, 31 Fox, maybe 31 Uniform, and we did SATCOM, but I was sort of the first sergeant's, I guess, assistant.

You can call me so I did. I ended up working in the office with him and a few other support staff most of my time in that's why I spent.

Derek (05:34.851)
Okay, so you left with Satcom experience in a time when that wasn't necessarily the hottest thing in the world, but it's definitely hot now, right? It's a big room. There was a lot of changes in the satellite space and we're living through another space boom. Okay, so after you went to Valet Cars, what was your next role? So what was the big transition from roles that we've all done where it's, you know,

Michelle Gundy (05:40.475)
Correct. Yeah.

Derek (06:02.595)
parking cars, doing pressure washing, bagging groceries. We've all had these kinds of things. It's interesting to hear, you know, whose story, who did what, whose job was the worst whenever they got out. What brought you into your career and into the goodness that you're experiencing now?

Michelle Gundy (06:11.839)
Thank you.

Michelle Gundy (06:18.143)
So after I did, I was working valet for a while and one of the valet's wives did cocktails across the street at the Palms. And she was like, why are you in valet? You should do cocktails. And I was like, I don't know. So she got me a job cocktailing and that got me into hospitality. So I worked in some of the biggest nightclubs in the world in Las Vegas for several years. And it was great. It was fun. But it, you know, that type of job has a very short lifespan, especially as someone who had been in the military. I felt like I had a.

bigger purpose in life. I felt like I was, you know, supposed to be doing something better than serving bottles, you know, in nightclubs to rich jerks. And which was really what it was back then, because that was before sort of the economy collapsed. And so people were just spending money and it just wasn't for me. So I did that for several years. And finally, I just decided I needed to get out of there. And I started going back to school and I got an associates and then decided to switch paths a little bit. And then I went back to school.

school for communications and I followed that all the way through. I did a bachelor's in communications, master's in communications, two graduate certificates in strategic communications and then finally the doctorate. So I've had my fair share of crummy jobs and you know that includes in the corporate sector as well.

Derek (07:38.595)
For sure. So the schooling you took that was mostly paid for by the GI Bill or did you get any scholarships or anything else around that?

Michelle Gundy (07:45.983)
No, not really. The GI bill covered some in the beginning, but obviously there's cap on that. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't pay for forever. So I think it ran out. I don't remember around around the batch. I think it paid for the bachelors and then that was a wrap. So after that, I just decided that if I wanted to go back, I needed to, you know, foot the bill and pay my way through. So no, I didn't get scholarships. One of my one of my corporate gigs paid for a little bit of my tuition.

So if any of our veterans out there who don't have the GI Bill or don't have tuition opportunities, I would look for companies that offer tuition assistance because that was a big help for a big chunk of the master's degree.

Derek (08:26.019)
sure and there's plenty of programs out there. And that's actually kind of dwindling away, less and less companies are doing it, but there's so many education programs that exist that I mean, even I don't know about and I spend a lot of time in this space. I see new ones all the time. But you know, it's the challenge to get into them is almost, you know, a full -time job in some ways, but there is some support out there. It looks like you've also spent some time in the entrepreneurial space. Tell me about Body Integration Studio.

Michelle Gundy (08:39.071)
one.

Michelle Gundy (08:54.783)
Yeah, Body Integration was my pet project. In 2019, around the same time that I decided to go back to school for the doctoral program, I was talking with my current CEO and I've worked in tech for 11 years and it was just a glass ceiling for me. I was not going to advance there and I didn't really want to stay in tech. And I told him, the CEO, I said, I'm going to venture out on my own once this program gets underway and I get this new skill set. And he didn't want to lose me as an employee.

I knew that I was a hard worker. I worked for him for 11 years. We had a pretty close professional relationship. So he said, why don't we start a business together? You know, anything you want, just sort of write me a business plan and let's talk about it. And I had all, you know, I was a big fitness, you know, nerd, which I'm sure, you know, a bunch of your audience can relate to. The army taught me about fitness. I hadn't worked out a day in my life until I joined the military and got out of there, hit the floor, ground running. And I've been, you know, working out and lifting weights ever since. So.

I had 20 years of gym rap experience under my belt. And I thought, you know, here's a whole list of all the things that everyone hates about gyms. What if I started a fitness studio and got rid of all these things that we hate so much. And I wanted to, I was trauma informed by that point. I researched trauma for my master's degree and I wanted to incorporate trauma. And so I said, what if I developed a trauma informed exercise program for first responders?

So for cops and for firefighters and for EMS, and this is common form, we get them in this space, and then we teach them about PTSD while we're doing these exercise regimens. And so that was the plan. We were gonna build a, it was a ground up construction, $16 million project, and I worked on it for three years. And unfortunately COVID just killed us. Towards the end, when we were getting ready to break ground, every 30 days we had to rebid.

and costs were going up 30 % across the board. So you talk about, you know, six months, 30 days at a time, and 30 % each time, it was just blooming out of control. So I pulled the plug and ended up backing the consulting world after that.

Derek (11:04.803)
That's exciting, but also stressful and troubling to hear. I mean, COVID killed lots of dreams like that. It's frustrating, but you did bring us into the trauma related experience and you talked about, I'm sure you learned a lot in the entrepreneurial world going through that you're able to apply. But back up a little bit to your dissertation, what that is and how that applies to the trauma informed space.

Michelle Gundy (11:34.143)
Sure, do you want me to talk about what a dissertation is or just sort of talk about mine specifically? I don't know what your audience knows when it comes to dissertations.

Derek (11:41.123)
That's actually a good point. So tell us what a dissertation is and then tell us about yours.

Michelle Gundy (11:46.431)
Sure, so a doctoral program is sort of two parts. There's the coursework. So you go to class for three years and you learn theory and how that theory involves your practice. But then towards the end, you decide on, or at least in our program, we decided on a problem of practice. So this is a problem that we found in our real world experience. And then we use the theory and the research that we've done to figure out how to maybe solve that.

And so my dissertation focused on, so like I said, I was trauma informed. I studied and researched trauma for my masters and 2020 comes, George Floyd happens and everyone's so angry at the police, including me, right? And I know that you don't tackle a problem just by being mad at it, but you can focus your passion. You can focus that anger and that energy on finding innovative solutions. And that's what I wanted to do. I said, okay, I know all this work about trauma.

I know how it changed my worldview and my ability to relate and cooperate with others. What would happen if we trauma -informed the police? So I started looking for research and in 2020, there was nothing. There was no research, no literature on trauma -informed policing initiatives at that time. And I can tell you everyone at USC, from my chair to the other faculty, everyone involved said, don't research the police.

You're going to make your life miserable. Don't do this. Research veterans, research any other research teachers, research, SR, research any other population except the police. And I said, no, because that tells me that this is a field that needs this type of research. So I dug in and they were absolutely right. It made my life super miserable for about a year because it was really hard. You know, police are super hesitant to get involved in research. They're not really, you know, keen on getting involved with academics.

Derek (13:25.571)
Good for you.

Michelle Gundy (13:37.535)
So it took me a long time, but I found one or two officers who were just amazing. And I snowball sampled from there. So they, you know, they connected me with one other officer who connected me with another officer. And I was able to develop a really deep and rich study on why trauma informed policing initiatives work. And I had officers come out and tell me, and these are like, you know, veteran officers who spent 30, 40 years on the field.

And they're telling me like, if you're not trauma informed and you're a cop and you're in the wrong field, this is the way policing is going to be. And this is the future of policing. So it was really great. It was great for me. It really connected me with the law enforcement community and it made me excited to continue working with them.

Derek (14:22.691)
So you weren't an MP, you weren't in the police force before this. So what does trauma informed, what does being trauma informed even mean?

Michelle Gundy (14:27.167)
Yeah.

Michelle Gundy (14:33.471)
It really means having an understanding of how trauma impacts human behavior. And you start to recognize bad behavior as sick behavior. So for example, let's say you have a boss who's just a really bad micromanager, super controlling. They hire all these smart people, all these subject matter experts, and then they want to micromanage everything they do. That person clearly has issues with control. And what do we know about people with issues of control? They've obviously...

the guts and trauma around being out of control, around not having control. So we can all understand that, right? We can relate so that we understand what it feels like to have no control over our environment, no control over our situation. And we know what it feels like to want to just crack down and control little things around us. So that helped me learn to soften my edges towards people who were distributing, or not distributing, not distributing, but demonstrating that type of behavior.

And once you learn to put those pieces together, because trauma impacts us at every stage throughout our life, but for the most part, it happens early in our childhood. We have a parent who is abusive or who had substance use issues or we were neglected or no one heard us. So if you grow up as a child and your needs aren't met, you spend the rest of your life trying to get those needs met. And it really informs how you act as an adult. And learning that helped me see others through a different lens.

And you can take that into any aspect of your career. For example, when I worked at Bonnie Integration, I led a team of 40. And these were the most brilliant people I could find. A lot of them were engineers, chemical engineers and chemical engineers. And we had two individuals in particular who just could not get along. And they were the smartest people on my team. They bottlenecked our work. They argued on calls. They would not talk to each other unless I was in the room babysitting.

So I took that trauma -informed experience and I pulled them aside, one on one. And one of them was a female. She was a PhD in chemical engineering and she was older than me. She was in her late 50s. So I had her one on one and a heart to heart with her. And I said, what is going on here? Like, why are you overexplaining your calls? Like, what's going on? And she was broke down. And she said, listen, I came from a male dominated field. My chair stole my research and used it as his own. So I've been getting.

Michelle Gundy (16:53.311)
You know, men have been getting credit for my work my entire life. I never feel like people hear me. I never feel like I'm being listened to. So I just told them, you know, look, you're the smartest person in the room. I wouldn't have you on my team if I didn't think you were brilliant. But I need you on calls to state your piece and then stop right there. If anyone has a problem with what you're saying, then all cut in. But you just have to assume that I think you're the most brilliant person in the room. I hear you and I trust what you're saying. And when I went to the other engineer and I said, listen, stop being crappy.

to her, right? Don't be a jerk. Be kind, be polite. She's had a rough struggle. She's used to not being heard. And you're reinforcing that because you ignore her. And after we had that conversation, everyone was able to get along. It seems so silly that I have to talk to other executives and other leaders and say, hey, figure out why your people are acting this way. Have a one -on -one with them. Get to the root cause of their issues. And I guarantee your problems will go away. But it works. And it's the same way in policing.

If you're an officer and a female comes to you to report a sexual assault, first informed, you have to understand this is probably one of the hardest decisions she's ever had to make in her entire life. She knows that women aren't listened to in these, you know, sometimes they are and they're great cops out there who really know trauma -informed interrogation and trauma -informed interviewing, but there's a lot that don't. She knows she's up against the odds even by reporting this. Be kind, be compassionate, don't come at her.

like a jackhammer. What happened? Give me all the details. Be compassionate. If her timeline doesn't seem to add up, if her reasoning isn't all there, understand that that's how the brain works in a traumatic situation. You're not going to get all the details. You're at the campus and a traumatic event gets knocked offline. And that's how your memories are created and formed. So by understanding how the brain works and how neurobiology works, it'll make you a better interviewer and interrogator. So.

Once I learned that and I started talking to cops about that, the light bulb just sort of goes on for them. They're like, wow, I can think back on how many investigations I ruined by coming at them too hard and not believing their story or this, that, and the other. So it's really been a great experience for me watching that light bulb come on and watch other officers talk about how wonderful learning about trauma has been for them.

Derek (19:17.539)
It's a fantastic story and I have lots of questions and comments about it. No, no, no, you did. It was great. So.

Michelle Gundy (19:20.491)
Sorry if I rambled a bit there.

Derek (19:28.771)
Trauma from childhood can last forever and we see, I believe that the research shows now that most people going through even these intense psychedelic programs, the trauma that comes out is usually tied back into childhood more so than the experiences of war. Can you comment a little bit about that?

Michelle Gundy (19:45.855)
Absolutely.

Sure. So what we see typically with PTSD and with veterans is an acute trauma. So, and you know, when I say acute, it doesn't just mean a single experience. It can be, you know, acute over a deployment or acute, you know, during your time in service versus it doesn't always become complex and chronic, but it typically does in childhood. If you grow up in an abusive childhood, let's say your dad has substance use issues. He drinks and he comes home, he beats, beat your mom, he beats the kids. That is, that is chronic.

trauma and especially in early adolescence, your brain will rewire itself to survive in that traumatic environment. So you're going to become hypervigilant. You're going to become aggressive. You're going to, you know, you might develop different types of behaviors that help you thrive in that childhood. Let's say the only way you can get, you know, get by with your parents is through people pleasing. So you have to develop those types of pro -social behaviors that really make you submissive or whatever it is.

Those then become lifelong patterns and you're going to repeat them in other relationships. If you're used to and you're comfortable around an abuser, you're going to date abusers. You're going to be attracted to abusers. It's going to become lifelong. So that's the difference between CPTSD, which typically starts in childhood or, you know, it can happen at any point in life, but it typically develops or starts at an early adolescence versus an acute PTSD, which can be wartime.

or a specific abuse or something that you see out in the field. So there's a difference. They're both equally persistent, they're both equally complicated, and they're equally important to address, but there's just some differences in how we get.

Derek (21:31.139)
Do you think there's a higher incidence of individuals in the military having this traumatic shot of experiences? Did you find that in your research?

Michelle Gundy (21:40.479)
Absolutely. I know that both law enforcement and military, you know, you think about it, you grow up as an abuse kid, there's a good chance you're going to want to go out to help people. You're going to want to go out to be, you know, to make the world a better place. And so yes, we see a lot. There's something called an ACE score. ACEs are adverse childhood experiences. And I always recommend that people figure out, you can go online, there's a website called ACEs Too High.

and you can figure out what your own ACE score is. And what we know from the research is that law enforcement and military, they have higher baseline ACE scores going into those fields than the general population. So that just makes you even more likely to then be affected by trauma in the line.

Derek (22:28.899)
Thank you for that. I want to say thank you for the science words there. I have a good friend in this space that we talk about this sometimes and he refers to military taking in broken toys and the ACE score kind of goes a hand with that. So we can actually see how that affects you. And I think that having this kind of knowledge out there, not intending for anybody to be self -diagnosing themselves, but having an awareness that these things exist can help people find their way back.

Michelle Gundy (22:32.127)
So.

Michelle Gundy (22:40.735)
Exactly.

Derek (22:58.659)
better, faster. So with this impressive knowledge of trauma -informed counseling and trauma -informed consultation, what, so it was the George Floyd experience that was unfolding on TV that brought you to the police force with this knowledge, experience?

Michelle Gundy (23:00.351)
absolutely.

Michelle Gundy (23:17.087)
Yeah, it was that and prior to George Floyd, just a few years prior, I dated a SWAT officer, a police officer, and he was just a mental health mess. There's just no way around it. And I knew that at some point something was going to happen on the job. He was going to get injured or he was going to get sidelined and his mental health was going to unravel. And, you know, I did my best. I'm not a practitioner. I'm not a therapist. I'm not a counselor. I did my best.

to get him to be sort of self -reflective and proactively. And it just wasn't there. But it did get my sort of my wheels turning. And I started thinking like, okay, well, that's not my path. I mean, that was not our path together. But what if other law enforcement, law enforcement and military, what if while I'm teaching them about trauma in civilians, what if they learn a little bit about trauma in themselves? And what if that allows them to be a little bit self -reflective?

And you're absolutely right. You can't self diagnose. But if you start thinking and you start recognizing patterns in your own behavior, that's what got me to therapy. I have a CPT, CPTSD diagnosis stemming from childhood. I had issues with interpersonal relationships my entire life and the feedback was always consistent, right? And I didn't want to believe it. I didn't want to believe that I was a problem. They're weak. They're the problem. They need to grow up. They need to man up. It wasn't me. And finally, in my...

the early 30s, I was like, damn, I seem to be the common denominator here, right? Everyone has the same feedback. So if everyone's telling me the same thing about my behavior and how it impacts them, maybe I'm the problem. And I wasn't ready for therapy yet, but it got my wheels turning. And then I started learning a little bit about trauma and a little bit about PTSD. And it's like, okay, I do sort of have some of these behaviors. Maybe I should get into therapy. Day one, my therapist is like, I think you have PTSD.

And I was like, this ain't the therapist for me. She obviously doesn't know what she's talking about. Right? So I disengaged a few years later, I went back, I found another therapist and immediately she said, you have CPTSD. So I think that teaching people to be reflective, not to diagnose themselves, but to be reflective, learn, learn some of these patterns of behavior and see if maybe you see yourself in that and then get yourself some help.

Derek (25:15.555)
Yeah

Derek (25:36.547)
That was very big of you for sharing that here with us. That's fantastic. Thank you for that because people need to hear it, right? We don't hear it enough, but you demonstrated what I think is crucial for veterans in this, not just veterans, but I speak in veterans because of our healthcare system, for individuals to be able to understand their behavior and how it affects others. But if you don't know...

Michelle Gundy (25:42.591)
to breathe.

Derek (26:04.131)
what's out there and you don't know what you don't know, then how can you understand it, right? So people in this space, we need to hear from others who have figured out their way through these kinds of situations. We see too much on the news, the mental health situation around veteran service and that goes all the way back into childhood and there's a lot happening. I think the VA healthcare system has came a long way since I've been a part of it, but we still see.

lots of incidences on the news and social media. There needing to be more. So any effort to bring, you know, highlight to the space is great, especially when it's one of us. So you reminded me of one of the readings from our program. What year did you graduate?

Michelle Gundy (26:39.679)
So.

Michelle Gundy (26:54.623)
Last year, 2023, just celebrating my one year graduation anniversary.

Derek (26:59.747)
Okay, well, congratulations on that. And so I imagine it was part of this part of your curriculum too. I don't remember the author and I will share it with you after it was about anesthesiologists and how they, how they had to train, not just them, but the book was written by, or the articles written by an anesthesiologist about how you train yourself at the highest levels. And like, for example, could be Brian and LeBron James were used as examples for, what do you,

Michelle Gundy (27:01.343)
Thank you.

Derek (27:29.731)
who's teaching the experts and how do they get better? And a lot of it comes through self -reflection, literally watching videos of yourself. Now, we don't all have video footage of ourselves doing our jobs, except in your head, in your mental head, if you're replaying yourself at the end of the day, at lunchtime, during breaks to see, reflecting on what's happening at that point, and if you do it more often, you'll have that more clear mental.

Michelle Gundy (27:39.167)
Yes.

Michelle Gundy (27:43.743)
Right.

Derek (27:58.403)
mental movie of yourself. But in actual training at people at the highest level, people who are the best in their field, they literally go into analyzing their own habits. So I think we can all do that a little bit and analyze our habits and how we perform, right?

Michelle Gundy (28:17.023)
Definitely. Yeah, absolutely. If you're not reflecting back on the work you're doing, there's really no room for growth because you don't know what mistakes you've made and where you have to. And I think you have to be really, really hypercritical with yourself. Not in a negative, not criticize yourself, but you have to say like, what, you know, why am I maybe not reaching my goals or what could I be doing better? Or man, you know, I don't feel good about that interaction I just had with so -and -so. You know, what could I have done? Could I have been kinder? Could I have been more compassionate? Could I have listened more? Could I have been more understanding?

So yeah, absolutely, I think that growth comes from reflection.

Derek (28:52.771)
I want to take you back into how you're rolling this out to police forces and such. I see you were executive director of the American Society of Evidence -Based Policing for some time. What was that role?

Michelle Gundy (29:03.271)
It was interesting. I expected that to be a little different than it was. They just, they weren't ready for an executive director yet. They're just not there in there. The organization itself isn't there where they can support an executive director. But, you know, the goal was to really come in and get that off the ground, to really push evidence -based policing practices. I think that we are really at a time where police are starting to listen.

and they're starting to look to the research. You know, there's a 20 year - I apologize. Got a guard dog on me. She never takes a break.

Derek (29:36.579)
Thank you.

My mind's wondering what's going on. He's at the window now. We'll be fine, don't worry.

Michelle Gundy (29:43.807)
Okay, I apologize. She's been quiet all day. She literally waits for me to get on calls. But there's a 20 year evidence to action gap in law enforcement. And yeah, 20 years, Derek, it kills me as a researcher, especially in someone in the trauma space, I'll talk to police and they'll mention the read technique, which is an investigative technique.

Derek (29:51.267)
No, no reason.

Derek (29:58.019)
20.

Michelle Gundy (30:11.711)
that has been debunked for decades and they still use it. And so, you know, that kills me. So that's really why I wanted to get involved with ASAPP because I think finally police are starting to work. We're venturing into a modern era of policing and police are starting to listen to researchers and to academics and we're starting to say, okay, we realize that maybe the way that we did things over the last few decades are not the best way. So.

What else can we learn? So yeah, I worked for the for ACDP for a little while. They just weren't ready for me to take over yet, but you know, I wish them the best and I'm still working in the law enforcement space.

Derek (30:50.595)
So now we've got evidence -based policing. We had trauma -informed policing. We have a 20 years evidence to action rate. This sounds very much like low -hanging fruit, or just opportunity for improvement here. So what does it mean to be evidence -based, and how is that not the current situation? That seems counterintuitive and hard to understand.

Michelle Gundy (31:06.207)
Right.

Michelle Gundy (31:16.511)
Yes, that's a great question. Evidence -based means exactly that. If you're gonna come up with a new intervention, a new method, a new technique, you can just make it up, you can do what feels good, or you can turn to the research and say, what do we know that works, right? What do we know? Here's an example. My partner works for corrections. And the other day we were debating, how do you reduce violence in corrections?

in a jail facility. So this is not a prison where people are there for longer terms. This is jail where the average length of stay is maybe 30 or 50 days. Add an incredibly violent facility. How do you reduce violence? Well, you can lock people away for longer, right? So maybe you just don't let them out of cells for you only let them out of cells for four hours a day. Will that reduce violence? Sure. In the short term, it will. But what are you doing about their long about the long term ramifications for mental health for those individuals?

And what most people don't realize is that 95 % of all people in custody will eventually be released into society. So do we want to rehabilitate them? And do we want to incorporate more programs, interventions that are rehabilitated that will help them once they are released? Or do we just want to put them behind bars and in cages for longer periods of time? So that's a great opportunity to implement evidence -based research. What does evidence and research tell us?

about locking people up for longer periods of time. Is it good for their mental health? Absolutely not. Does it make them more violent in the long run? Absolutely. So if you want to reduce violence, do you want to look at punitive measures that have short term outcomes, but really are detrimental in the long term? Or do you want to look at what are some long term interventions that can reduce violence? And some of those include,

intrinsic motivation motivators, right? We know there's a difference between intrinsic motivation for behavior and extrinsic motivation, excuse me, motivation for behavior. So for, you know, let's say a child or let's say an adult, an intrinsic motivator would be like, well, I feel fulfilled at work. So I want to do the best job that I can. I love my job. They take good care of me. They allow me to develop myself professionally. I want to stay here long -term. That's an intrinsic motivator.

Michelle Gundy (33:38.943)
versus an extrinsic motivator, which would be like, if you meet this sales goal, you'll get an extra thousand dollars. Okay, so I'm gonna work real hard to hit that goal, but then I'm not motivated to work hard anymore. That's where evidence -based and research -based interventions come into play. You have to turn to the research and say, what do we know about human behavior? What do we know about evidence? What do we know about research? And then guide your practices based on that.

Derek (34:06.627)
That's an interesting point for the corrections space, right? And the importance of rehabilitation. There's probably a bigger problem with getting people into those facilities, right? What does the evidence -based policing gap there mean?

Michelle Gundy (34:17.055)
Right.

Michelle Gundy (34:27.679)
Yes.

Michelle Gundy (34:34.111)
in corrections?

Derek (34:35.395)
No, in policing. So I'm concerned about the 20 year, you know, knowledge gap, but then further upstream in terms of the individuals going into the system, right? So what does evidence -based policing mean in terms of, is there a gap in the actual police force in doing evidence -based investigations now? What is...

Michelle Gundy (34:42.623)
evidence that.

Michelle Gundy (35:04.415)
Absolutely. Yes, it depends. I mean, you know, every we've got, you know, almost 18 ,000 police departments in this country, right? And there's no national standards when it comes to training or policy. And most states don't even, you know, have a unified training. So it's it's and that makes sense because there are maybe two hundred fifty three hundred really large departments. You're talking about NYPD or, you know, LAPD. These are huge departments.

you can't expect them to run the same way that a small department of, you know, 12 officers is going to run. They're going to have different complexities. They're going to have different problems. They're going to have different issues. So it's really hard to have a sort of unified national training standard. But what that leaves is that leaves every department, you know, it's every man for themselves when it comes to policing and law enforcement. And I did some research last year and I spoke to,

sheriffs and chiefs who's there. I have a big, I spend more money on dog food every month than they spend on their training budget, right? So it's like, how do we get them? Yeah. And if they can't get grant funding, let's say they don't have a grant writer on staff writing grant. I don't know if you've ever written a grant. It's a nightmare. I just wrote a 20 page grant yesterday. I don't expect some ranking file officer to be able to do that. I literally have a doctorate. I know how to write. I don't expect officers to know how to do that.

So I don't expect them to understand how to pay for funding, how to pay for training. It's really difficult. That's why there is that evidence to action gap. How do you expect, if you're a small and rural department, where are you getting your research? There's paywalls in place, right? So how do you, even if you want to find research, how are you gonna get it? How are you gonna know to just pair up with an academic or a researcher or a research institution? It's really, really difficult. And until we can sort of make those improvements or have more organizations.

nonprofits and such that are in place to help police departments train and get this research, that evidence to action gap is going to stay there. A lot of the bigger departments, NYPD, they've got researchers on staff, they've got analysts on staff, they're a little more modern. But some of these small rural departments, they're still living in the 1970s and 80s and it's really no fault of their own.

Derek (37:19.795)
you're educating me right now, that's for sure. So we have the legal bar to pass and that varies per state, but that is a statewide. I don't know, there's a federal bar. We have medical boards. I think those are also state run. Are there at least state run police standardization boards for states?

Michelle Gundy (37:34.431)
now.

Michelle Gundy (37:40.959)
Yes.

Michelle Gundy (37:48.671)
Yes.

Derek (37:48.675)
Or are you telling me that the only overarching document covering police standards in this United States is our constitution?

Michelle Gundy (37:59.935)
I mean, to be honest, for the most part, everything falls back on the constitution. And that's why you hear so frequently constitutional policing, because that's really our guiding document in the world of policing. But yes, many states like California and a lot of the larger states, I don't know if it's every state, I know at least mostly have a post. And that's where the training, the standards and training come from. But again, it's up to each state.

So each state can sort of pick and choose the type of training that they want to post certify or that they don't. And it's not always easy to get training certified as well. I work with a few nonprofits, Police to Peace is one in particular that is very near and dear to my heart. And it's difficult for them to get, you know, they're able to get this post -training certification, but it's not easy. And, you know, they're led by a woman who is just an absolute juggernaut. She came from the tech world.

And she's amazing. Not all nonprofits are run by people who spent 20 or 30 years in the private sector just killing it. So it's difficult to get these trainings passed. It's really, really an uphill battle. And you have to have a chief or a sheriff who really wants to drag their organization into the 21st century. That can be difficult as well. I think one of the things we learned from the...

The doctoral program is that change is hard and not everyone is ready for it. And the status quo is always going to be easier.

Derek (39:27.939)
Yes, but you're really covering a huge problem here, right? And so for our listeners who probably experience that most training that you get in corporations is terrible and that doesn't stick, right? And so you have that layer and now you've got to figure out what organizations are providing training specific to police organizations who are willing to withstand the grueling contract cycle.

Michelle Gundy (39:32.095)
Okay.

Michelle Gundy (39:41.503)
Terrible. Yeah.

Derek (39:55.587)
that occurs within the funding and budget. So I don't know a lot of people in the space, a lot of training in this space, but I imagine the folks delivering this training work very hard to get the contracts, but it's probably underfunded, under budget. And here we are again, going back to nonprofits, closing the gap on educating people who are.

in charge of our defense or defending us or protecting us or something like that. So what is the nonprofit space that is assisting police forces? What does it look like compared to the nonprofit space providing training to veterans and such?

Michelle Gundy (40:43.711)
You know what? That's a good question. I'm assuming it's pretty similar. I don't know where veteran nonprofits get their funding. I mean, I'm sure it's federal government, but I'm not exactly sure which administrations for like law enforcement, BJA, the Bureau of Justice Administration, that's one, and OJP, NIJ, they give grants to these nonprofits, but you're absolutely right about it being underfunded. The kicker is a lot of them will only pay by the hour, you know, it'll be like $80 an hour, whereas

you know, I'm sure you know, in the consulting world, $80 an hour for a consultant is a joke. I know, you know, I'm a consultant, I have friends who are consultants, and it's like, they won't even look at a document for under $150, $200 an hour. And these are for, these are for independent consultants. If you want to go to a firm, if you want to go to a Deloitte, you're talking $300, $400, $700 an hour. So to say that the federal government will only pay these nonprofits $81 an hour,

to implement this training, you have to find people who are just so passionate about the work that they're willing to do it at such a reduced rate because they could easily get hired at a KPMG or a Deloitte and make $300, $400 an hour. So it really sort of divides like who's in it for the right reason and who's in it because they wanna make money. So if you're looking for passionate people, you're gonna look in that nonprofit space and I'm assuming it's the same way for the veteran space. If you really wanna find,

people who are passionate about veteran assistance, you're going to find them in the nonprofit space, you're not going to find them in the consulting space.

Derek (42:21.475)
so on funding and this policing space, there was a, a slogan or a motto or something from a while back that was defund the police. Right. And then there was, there, there, I think there is pretty much pretty good evidence of the militarization of police. recently I did see where a couple of universities had completely closed down their DEI.

Michelle Gundy (42:34.079)
Yeah.

Michelle Gundy (42:42.623)
Yeah.

Derek (42:51.427)
organizations and transferred those funds over to the campus police. I also heard of and I've spoken about the idea of, you know, increasing the number of mental health providers who are part of the police force. A ratio of, you know, one mental health provider per X number of police officers or citizens or something. I don't know. I'm not the expert in this space, but something more to help with.

mental health of the, like on the scene when crimes are happening, but also in the office, in the back room with the officers. What can you share with us about that space and any thoughts on the topic?

Michelle Gundy (43:37.279)
Sure, so, you know, let's talk a little bit about, we have militarized our police departments. That's exactly what we've done over the last few decades. It really started with the war on drugs and the war on crime, right? And the problem with that is the military and our police departments don't have the same mission. And they shouldn't have the same mission because, you know, we're military. We know, we know what our mission was.

Do we want our police to feel the same way? Do we want to be seen as the others by our police? Or do we want our police to be peace officers, which is essentially what they should be in this country. It's why I work so hard with police to peace. So I'm all for demilitarizing the police, but you can't do that by defunding the police, right? You have to fund them even more than you, because you can only do that through education and training, right? You can't just strip them of all their military grade equipment. You have to train them different.

And that means cultural change, which as you and I know, doesn't happen overnight. And it's not easy. This is not a webinar that comes in, you know, 30 minutes, you check this box and now you're peace officers and you go on your way and you're no longer teasing or using excessive use of force. It doesn't work like that. We're talking about fundamentally overhauling the, not just police departments, but the policing system we have in the United States today. And...

It takes money, it takes funding, it takes resources, it takes research and evidence -based training to get us there. And on top of that, it takes mental health providers. And that means for police as well. We're very heavily focused on how police traumatize civilians, but we have to recognize that police are also suffering from trauma as well, whether it's pre -established before they even join the force, or it's something they're picking up while they're there.

We have to treat them too. We can't ask police to show compassion for citizens unless we're willing to do the same for them. So yes, you're absolutely right. More departments need mental health professionals. They need mental health training because a lot of them have EAP, which is employee assistance programs, and cops just don't trust those. So they need better options, which it's the same for the military. Imagine if your first argument was like, hey, something's off with you, go sit with this shrink.

Michelle Gundy (45:59.039)
It's never going to happen. And if you do, it's going to be a mandated hour. You're not going to open up. You're not going to be vulnerable. So we need to, again, turn to the research and see, OK, how do law enforcement officers want to engage with mental health professionals? Is it through EAP? Is it through peer support? Is it through a paid program where they can speak with their own provider that's not someone affiliated with their department? That's where we need to get to. And again,

can't get there by defunding the police. I know it sounds good to say defund the police, we're mad at them, let's take away their money. It's not how we make things better. We need more funding, we need more resources, and we need more evidence -based practices.

Derek (46:39.299)
That was a great addition to this conversation. I really appreciate it. You really took another perspective there that some people really kind of need to hear because of, and you said sometimes it does feel good to say defund the police, right? But we got to remember there are great cops out there who are doing it for the right reasons. And how are they getting help? Because I can tell you that some of them see worse things than we see overseas as veterans. And it's a...

Michelle Gundy (46:51.423)
Thank you.

Michelle Gundy (46:55.039)
Definitely.

Derek (47:08.643)
pretty consistent for some, but not across the board. But how, you know, it's a good point, is how are they getting the help that they need? Back to that paper that I referenced about from anesthesiologist, how are those experts getting trained and finding the space to deal with their trauma that they have experienced, are experiencing, and are about to experience? And how does that relate to proper policing?

There's a lot happening there with not a lot of funding.

Derek (47:46.819)
with the current political situation and raising and lowering of taxes, defunding the said and the other. I mean, how much are we as citizens expecting or anticipating nonprofits to be the answer here?

Michelle Gundy (48:07.999)
I think a lot of the slack is falling on in the nonprofit space. I think that's why there are so many federal grants available to help fund them just because there's really not, you know, one of the issues we deal with in this country is we don't delve into, we don't want to solve the root cause of problems, right? And so we just want to put band -aids on stuff over and over and over again. And you can't just say, okay, well, now we're going to crack down on, let's say officers who use excessive use of support. So we're not going to retrain them.

We're not going to overhaul their department. We're not going to bring in leadership. We're not going to do that. We're just going to crack down and we're going to start arresting officers who use excessive use as a force, right? So what does that do? Then that causes law enforcement, excuse me, officers and personnel to flee the field because they're like, okay, this is, you know, this society got us into this. Society wanted us to be hard on drugs and hard on crime. They gave us these military grade weapons.

and this is what they wanted, right? We made this dinner and now we don't wanna eat it, right? And it's not, that's just kind of what we do in this country. So we're not solving the root cause of these issues. And then we're just throwing bandages wherever we can. So, okay, let's arrest officers who use excessive use of force. Well, now we're in a recruitment and retention crisis in law enforcement. We're finally, finally, just in the last couple of months, starting to see the first turnaround really since George Floyd.

But in 2020, 2021, 2022, it was a mass exodus from law enforcement. And again, 20 year evidence to action gap, no one knew what to do. So we're just trying to, we're really just trying to figure that out now. And again, it falls on these nonprofits who are passionate about it and who want to, you know, really make a difference and we'll do it at half the cost of some of these big firms. You can look up.

And this is not knocking the big four or any consulting firm in any way, shape or form, but you can look up incidences where, you know, law enforcement agencies paid millions and millions of dollars to bring in a KPMG or a Deloitte and violence went up, you know, crime went up. And it's because they're, you know, they're just not as passionate about this field as the nonprofit. So we have to sort of decide in this country what we want to see and how we want our

Michelle Gundy (50:28.287)
military or police to perform and then that's where we have to start putting our funding. So if you're out there and you have you know and you're willing to donate to some of these non -profits find out what nonprofits are in your state that are doing good things with the police or the military find out who's really making an impact and throw some cash their way because they're hurting.

Derek (50:47.907)
So I guess I didn't realize there was a mass exodus or a recruiting retention problem with, but it makes sense, with the, the pay level and the trauma level and same thing with the veterans. there's a huge recruiting and retention crisis now and, that they're, they're battling, but, on the same note, you, you brought up something that I.

Michelle Gundy (50:53.087)
Wow.

Michelle Gundy (51:02.783)
Yes.

Michelle Gundy (51:06.943)
Yeah.

Derek (51:16.419)
that I think I read, but I wasn't, I didn't, I hope I wasn't. I keep thinking that I couldn't be right, but I guess I have to ask you. It appeared that some, how do I say this appropriately? Some police forces were now deputizing recently crossing the border, illegal immigrants as police officers.

Michelle Gundy (51:18.751)
Thank you.

Derek (51:46.467)
and you're nodding your head, so there must be some validity to that. Tell me what you know about that.

Michelle Gundy (51:53.119)
I don't know a ton about that, but I have heard of it in desperate times, call for desperate measures. I have heard about police departments, you know, deputizing civilians or literally anyone they can because there's just no one to do the job. So does that sound like a good idea to me? No, no, I don't think, you know, do you want your law enforcement professionals to not have any type of standards or training or do you want them to be in essentially starvation mode? No.

Of course not, it might sound great on this side of the fence, but when you're on the other side of that, is that the kind of person you wanna be policed by? Someone who's had no training, has no experience, no education in this and is just like, well, we're struggling, so we're just gonna make you a deputy for the day. Come on, that's silly. This is the United States, we should be better.

Derek (52:44.803)
So back to the whole kind of connection to the military. People can come here and join our military, be from any other country, and then get their citizenship while they're in or after they get out or never get their citizenship. We see that as well. But can still serve in our military. How is it different for them coming here and serving on the police force?

Michelle Gundy (52:48.511)
Mm -hmm.

Michelle Gundy (53:04.319)
That's a good question.

Boy, that's a good question. That's what we thought we were hoping. I don't know. I don't know if it's different.

Michelle Gundy (53:17.471)
You know what? I don't know. That's really nuanced and it's really complex. I don't have a great answer for that. I can, I can see pros and cons to, to both, but I think it falls back on, on training. Are we doing this because it's the right thing to do? Or are we doing this out of an act of desperation because we have no other options. You know, if we can't find anyone to fill these roles, should we just wing it or do we need to go back to the root cause of the problem and start maybe focusing our efforts there?

Derek (53:49.283)
I don't know how much time you have after we run this to 1 30, but you're from New York and I think you're the mayor of New York City. I just made a comment about hiring immigrants who had just swam as lifeguards because they were good swimmers. Do you hear that storyline or that kind of feels like the same situation? And this just came to me when I remembered you were from New York and I saw him saying that on television again. Does that make sense to you?

Michelle Gundy (53:50.527)
Thank you.

Michelle Gundy (53:54.815)
Yeah.

Michelle Gundy (54:06.519)
Yeah. Okay.

Michelle Gundy (54:19.647)
So yes and no, I think that in the moment he sort of chose the, it came off as a little tone deaf, right? To say like, these people are great swimmers and we need lifeguards. I don't think he meant it. Yeah, exactly. I see you shaking your hand and I think that's how everyone heard it. It was a little tone deaf moment, but I think the underlying principle that he was trying to get across there, Sam Shrewd. We have all these people here, but we can't allow them to work because there's bureaucracy and red tape in the way.

They want to work. They've got skills that we need in the workforce right now. Let's cut through the red tape. Let's cut through the BS. Let's let them work. In that case, I can agree with that. And I think that that's what he's not saying. Let's let, you know, an unskilled unshrinked. He's saying these people have the skills and we need workers with these skills. Let's, let's cut through the BS and get them these jobs that they're qualified for. I think that's a little different, but I totally agree with you. I think that the way you say it in the moment.

I think you should have used maybe a different metaphor for that. I think it came off as a little tone deaf, but I saw his follow -up statement and I can agree with what he said in principle, just not the way he said it.

Derek (55:27.907)
Yeah, I didn't follow the story that much after I saw that piece. So thank you for the context. So how do police chiefs do this? How do they get better right now with no additional budget? What's available to them for free to help them become more educated in this space? I mean, I guess woke is the wrong.

Michelle Gundy (55:32.703)
Absolutely.

Derek (55:57.603)
word or is the right word? I don't know that even how it applies, but like be more aware and cognizant of this 20 year gap and how can we help them help us?

Michelle Gundy (56:08.607)
Yeah, I think you just, I mean, you just said it's being aware and being cognizant, right? If you, the first step in change is recognizing that there's a need for change. And if you can't even get there, if you think you do everything right and your department or your agency is the greatest and there's no room for improvement, then you know what? There's probably no room for improvement because they're not gonna get you past that first step, right? So the first step is really being cognizant and saying like, okay,

Maybe, you know, here are some issues that our department is experiencing or here's some problems, some challenges. What can we do to make it better? And then they can do the same thing that someone like you and I would do. You know, when I wanted to develop body integration, the first thing I did was started researching. And that doesn't mean, you know, academic journals. I got a group of gym rats together and I said, what do we hate about gyms? And we made a list of all the things that we absolutely despise about gyms. I don't want to sign an annual contract. What if I hate your gym?

Right? What if you implement some new policy or something happens and I don't want to go to your gym. You want to be stuck there for four more months. So I'm going to contract. All right. Contracts have to go. So that's literally the first step. Realizing there's a problem and then turning to the research and the research can just be a group of peers. It can be a group of other professionals. It can be professional networks. It can be linked in asking questions. It can be Google. It can be chat GPT. Right. Finding out what are the problems and then what are other organizations, departments, people.

doing to address those problems? What does the research say? And that can, like I said, it doesn't have to be an academic journal. It can be the research you do online or the research you do through asking people in your professional network. I think that's a great start. And from there, you set small goals, small, attainable goals with a metric attached to it. I want to increase this behavior by this much by this date. Or I want to decrease this behavior by this much by this date. And you...

You work towards those goals and you start small and you get big. You develop a five -week plan. Anyone can set a goal. I don't care if your goal is, you know, I want to make sure I get the mail every day before 2 p Maybe it's a dumb goal, but if that's your goal and you can knock that out for a week, then set a bigger goal for the next week and then set a bigger goal for the next month. It's the same way, whether it's a professional goal or a personal goal. You start small and you go for more.

Derek (58:33.955)
How should people in this space contact you to help support their changes with their organizations?

Michelle Gundy (58:40.159)
No, absolutely. I'm on LinkedIn. So it's Dr. Michelle Bendy on LinkedIn. Or is it okay if I give out my email address? Absolutely. I'm always happy to help, especially veterans, right? I have a soft spot for veterans. Okay, perfect. My email address is Michelle Bendy, -I -C -H -E -L -L -E G -U -N -D -Y at gmail .com. I'm happy to give it to you. You can throw my LinkedIn in your notes or whatever you want. Any veterans that are out there, especially, I'm always willing to talk to a veteran.

Derek (58:49.059)
Sure, go for it, it's up to you.

Derek (58:53.763)
That's the beard.

Derek (59:09.827)
Once I get the ability to add links and post pictures, I was doing graphics and stuff on these. So here you are now doing this work that you love in a space that really needs it. But I'm taking it back to 07, 08 when you got out and you were parking cars for a valet. Is this the dream you had? How is it different?

Michelle Gundy (59:14.495)
There you go.

Michelle Gundy (59:27.487)
Yeah.

Not even a little bit. I had no idea back then. Let me tell you, I had no clue what I was gonna do or who I was gonna be. I'm still not 100 % sure. You know, I just turned 40 last year and graduated from the doctoral program and I'm in a new space and my career is really, I'm in a new place right now. I don't know. So no, back then I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do. I did know.

that I wanted to, and I have no idea to be honest with you where this goal came from. But at some point in my, in my young years, I decided I wanted to be a doctor by four. And I became a doctor at 39. And so, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a short term goal or a lifetime goal. Make, make goals for yourself. And that's what I did. I had no idea what I was going to do when I got out of the army. I thought I was going to be a lifer. So when first time it came to me and said, listen, this is not a safe environment for you anymore. I really think that you need to ETS.

that came out of left field. I was like, well, what am I going to do with my life? I had no idea. And there wasn't the veteran support back then that there is now. And I know that even now it can be confusing and hard to navigate and complicated. But there are some supports out there and there is help for veterans out there. So my best advice is use it. Use that support and use your network. Create a network. That's one thing I really failed at until I would say,

Honestly, until the doctoral program, I failed at creating a network and you just got to do that. It doesn't matter if it's 2007 or 2024, you're not going to get a job unless you know someone. We have just destroyed the hiring process to the point where you have to know someone to get... I got that valet job because my first sergeant knew the valet manager. So times have not changed in the last 20 years. You've got to know people. So expand your network. And I think one really important...

Michelle Gundy (01:01:24.255)
piece of that that everyone gets wrong when it comes to networking. It's people going to networking thinking, what can these people do for me? Flip that, go into a networking event or networking experience thinking, what can I do for these people? If you spend your career being a kingmaker, right? So supporting others, promoting others, helping others get forward, they will bring you with them. That is just how it happens. And I really focus on that in the doctoral program.

I started making connections, connecting people I know to other people I know. People remember that. They have since then come back to me and said, hey, I've got a consulting job for you now. Are you interested? So that's some advice I would really give to veterans, especially if they're young in their career, they're just transitioning out. Network and learn what you can, when you meet someone, ask them questions and start thinking like, what could I do for this person? Who do I know that might be able to help this person or that might be a good connection for this person?

And then follow up and say, hey, I remember, you know, I don't know if you remember me, but we spoke at this event. You know, I know you talk about this and I know someone in that space I would like to connect you to. People will remember that you did that for them versus just you reaching out saying, hey, I met you at this networking event. I'm looking for this. I need this. I want this help. If you flip it, you'll really get someone.

Derek (01:02:44.931)
That's fantastic advice. I support every bit of it. And I want to also co -sign on your making goals comment. Not just making them, but also writing them down. The power of writing down your goals is huge. But I do think that lots of us get out and we just kind of, we make maybe soft goals and we forget about some of the motivations and we maybe don't realize that there are resources available to help you find those goals. And.

Michelle Gundy (01:02:47.263)
Good, good.

Michelle Gundy (01:02:54.783)
Yeah.

Yes.

Derek (01:03:14.627)
but you gotta put some effort into understanding yourself and what you really wanna go do.

Michelle Gundy (01:03:19.679)
Definitely. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Derek (01:03:21.315)
I will thank you for your time. I hope to have you on here again soon once I understand more about trauma informed policing and evidence -based policing. And I appreciate it. And what else can I do for you?

Michelle Gundy (01:03:27.135)
Yeah, I'll say it.

Michelle Gundy (01:03:35.775)
Nothing, I want to just take a second to thank you. Actually, I love what you're doing for the veteran community. You reached out to me as a veteran when we were still in school to help me with some stuff and that's why I'm returning the favor today. I'll do anything you ever need because you helped me in my time of need. So I appreciate everything you're doing. You're one of the few people that actually puts your money where your mouth is. I appreciate that and I hope that your community continues to follow you and all your hard work.

Derek (01:03:58.083)
Thank you, Dr. Michelle Aguindy. We will talk to you again. Have a great day.

Michelle Gundy (01:03:59.359)
Absolutely, thank you, Dr. Thanks, you too, take care.