A HIRED CALLING!

Derek Wilson (02:23.278)
There he is, Dr. Do. Bill, how are you doing? Good, man. I'm still getting set up over here trying to make sure that that tech issue is not happening right now. I might have one too. I've noticed a little tick in my video. So if that starts, I have no idea what to do about it. No, I understand. I am looking right now. So what happened was the first two weeks I recorded, sure they were recording. And then,

because I logged in through my Calendly link instead of going to the actual zoom interface, I couldn't access the recordings. Yeah. We're in the trap behind three firewalls that I can't get to, but it's recording right fine. Just give me one second. I will rejoin you. Okay.

Derek Wilson (04:21.454)
I am back. I'm gonna get my screen set up here.

Be criminal.

All right, Philip Dana, thank you for joining us for this episode of Resume Revelators, a hired calling podcast. How are you doing?

Derek Wilson (04:43.498)
did I lose you? Yeah, you blipped out on me for a little bit. No problem, did you? So let's start that over again. Good morning and welcome to today's episode of Hired Calling Podcast from Resume Revelator. I have Philip Danner with me today. How are you doing, Phil? Good, Derek. Good to be here, man. Thanks for having me. So Philip, Phil, you've had a pretty impressive career, lots of experience helping veterans. I want to thank you for that firsthand.

Yeah, the gray hair and scars and the wrinkles come earned, not inherited. And not inherited. Very, very nice. So where are you located right now? I'm in Wake Forest, North Carolina. North Carolina. All right. Well, I'm in just north of San Diego, California. That's California. So looking back at your career, you were enlisted sailor and then you changed over to Navy officer after going to the Naval Academy.

I said you left in 2004. How much of your time while you were in was spent in human resources or recruiting? None. Well, kind of a lie. I did a two week harp duty on one of my enlisted times at home with my recruiter in Coeur d 'Alene, Idaho. So, and then coming out of high school, I went into bootcamp as an E3 because I convinced seven of my buddies to come with me. Seven.

Seven, you beat me, you got seven, that's impressive. So maybe it's always been in me, which is part of the story. So then why, if you weren't into the HR type space when you left, did you get into the HR type space when you got out? Well, I think that's a big focus for one of the things I want to get across, especially the audiences, veterans, or those that can help influence.

veterans is, you know, in the military, whether you're enlisted or an officer, you have to be passionate about people, the amount of training, the amount of, you know, performance reviews and feedback that you get on your management and your leadership abilities is more than anything I've gotten in the civilian world. And so if you're good at it and you love doing it, then why would you not get into HR? I think the problem is when I got into HR,

Derek Wilson (07:06.926)
I didn't know what HR was on this side of the fence. I thought it was, you know, S1, N1, admin. In the military, it's broken up into 32 different commands from recruiting command, you know, military entrance processing. Then you have those, you know, the civilians that take care of pay, and then you have all the training, which is, you know, a million other commands. It put...

put everything together and that's typically HR in a company and I didn't realize that. And when I'm talking to veterans, I say, HR, good HR, good HR is more like a J3 shop than an N1 or an S1 shop. That's a good perspective. Thank you for that. So when you first get out, you went to be a director of talent management at Syntex Homes and then on to the account.

executive recruiter for KBASMA International, then to diversity and inclusion leader, talent acquisition for Sears Holdings Company, and then manager, talent acquisition for Amazon, and then senior manager, global talent acquisition for Life Sciences, director, global talent acquisition for Nuvasive, director, global talent acquisition for Intuit, VP, Chief of People Operations for the IANA Foundation. We'll come back to that one here very, very soon. Official member of the Four Seamless Resource Council.

VP of Talent, HR Ops for work day, total rewards finalist for Zovio, VP of HR for Dendron, Dendrion, I'm not saying that properly, Executive Vice President, Chief Human Resource Officer for Asclepios. Can you say that for me, please? Yeah, Asclepios, the God of Medicine. God of Medicine, well, thank you for that. And now I'm unemployed, so how timely is I better practice what I preach? You know, it's a constant transition for us. And...

I did want to talk about your current employment situation and a special part of this as well. And then you were a board member of CommSafe AI. You're still there. You're still doing that. Yeah, although I don't do much. Ty Smith's got it. I was going to say, isn't that, that's with Ty Smith, right? I think I'm trying to have him on the show as well. He's amazing. So yeah, I think you can, it's crazy hearing, it's kind of like hearing yourself talk.

Derek Wilson (09:29.55)
of cringe like my god listen all those zigs and zags but there's one very important piece is when i got out i built houses i went to las vegas no training no onboarding there was a guy named rich rodriguez who was a reserve frog man at headquarters for a big home builder and he had convinced hr similar to a couple other construction companies to start hiring veterans and so i think that's important

I'm going to talk a lot about that being a link in the chain. There was a veteran that opened the door and then I ran into him and the team at a job fair. And I had grown up a blue collar builder, so knew how to read blueprints. And he threw me into the fire. There was no training, no onboarding. In fact, there was only one other veteran and he was airborne in Vietnam. And so, whoo.

And then I got into HR, which I think from just, you know, being in it for 20 years now, helping veterans and watching the space is how most of the veterans who are in senior HR leadership roles found their way into HR is they went into the business first, which I think is a good tact. So just wanted to highlight that.

No, that's a great point. And, you know, it seems to be the case, right? Networking is usually important. It's the people that we know that know us that help us get the jobs when we first get out. It's part of the big connection. So you've had a very impressive career here and let's go up to the Honor Foundation and in your role there and your experience. Actually, I'm sorry, before we do that, you were at Amazon before the Honor Foundation, correct? Yeah, I think what shaped the role that would become Amazon,

is, you know, once I got into Syntex Homes, I started hiring a lot. We were the hot industry at the time, growing faster than anyone else. Us, KBHomes, Toll House brothers, we would show up to all the military job fairs and hire senior enlisted and officers. And so, you know, to grow my own team, I just immediately turned

Derek Wilson (11:53.134)
back around and open the door for others. And then that was rewarding for me. And then got into HR at corporate. Then I got to open 52 doors across the US and really make a difference. Then a headhunting firm was some of the gods of military headhunting as my bosses and mentors. And then the client known as Sears Holdings at the time before it started its downhill slide. A lot of veterans.

lot of history at Sears of hiring veterans. And we did the, you know, big red one, Kmart apparel line. We did, we raised all the, well, we raised $7 million for the original funding of Wounded Warrior project at the Kmart cashier stands. We hired a lot of veterans, all rank shapes and sizes. We signed the original military spouse employment program. We signed.

a partnership for youth success, which is the Army Reserve and Guard program. And then we helped really blow out ESGR to support National Guard and Reserve and convince other employers to do the same. So I was doing all that. And then Amazon, you know, the guy that built Amazon, Rick Dalzell, is a West pointer and the first HR leader.

for Bezos for about 10 years was Dave Neakirk, who is also a West Pointer. And Bezos chief of staff for years was a Naval Academy, Samariner. And so, yeah, not a lot of people know that a lot of the largest companies throughout the last, you know, post World War II, a lot of military, you know, have made it, made their way up to the top and opened the doors. So I think my journey's in the Amazon.

already pretty well shaped and formed. And then my job at Amazon was to hire as many veterans as possible. And I think I was the 12th or 13th veteran in the company. We were only 3000 employees when I started. I had no budget, no plan, no resources, no career site, no branding, nothing. And I had to figure it out. Pretty awesome just a few weeks ago to see that they hit the 100 ,000 veteran mark and.

Derek Wilson (14:15.854)
You know, it's a global program, includes spouses and they've done just a tremendous amount of good. It's quite an accomplishment to think that you were, you know, what number of enters in number three? What was it? I didn't know. I was about 12 or 13. I think, you know, a couple of the general managers, the guys that ran the original warehouses before they're even fulfillment centers, Dan Faye and Micah Samuels, Lonnie Phillips is now the

the CCO or chief customer officer of Fanatics. A lot of these guys, you know, like Sears, the COO, Dick Sporting is good, Don Germano, a lot of those guys use Bradley Morris, Lucas, Orion to get a few of the first ones in. And I think that's key in starting a program or in veteran efforts is, you know, get a few in, make sure they're wildly successful before you go nuts and start hiring too many, because it can go wrong. I've seen a lot of companies.

do it in a bad way and not be able to blow the doors off their programs. You gotta be very thoughtful and planful about the culture and finding the veterans that fit the culture and not bring military culture into the company. Very good points there. So I knew about...

there being a large military affiliation appreciation for Amazon. I didn't know there was that much at the top, but it does help explain their op tempo and how they've been able to scale so quickly. And it definitely explains the risk decision to take on building the infrastructure for their own shipping program, right? Being able to say, we can do this and we're going to show USPS and UPS why and how, when they were doubted, right? They just took the, pulled the trigger and bought the airplanes and fashioned them over to be.

transport for cargo. The Genesis was the need for military talent, just to share some history with everyone, because it's pretty cool. And it's different than you would think, is the fine leaders at scale who can lead hundreds in a austere, high pressure, data -driven customer or mission -obsessed environment. And so you think about the time

Derek Wilson (16:35.822)
In the 90s, it was like IBM, Microsoft, and home builders, semiconductor companies. And then here comes Amazon. It wasn't necessarily Amazon versus Walmart or Target, because Amazon didn't have storefronts and retail talent. So where do you go find leaders like that? And it's not necessarily just logistics officers or logistics enlisted leaders.

Technically looking back, some of the best were pilots, special forces, infantry leaders with engineering degrees. They had to do a lot of math and lead hundreds of non -union folks that were five generations of talent. And you had to get it done, meaning the little bicycle that was going by that needed to get to Sally or Santa Claus doesn't exist. And so we were pretty good at making sure everyone understood.

the impact of failure was not, would probably lead to therapy and a bad childhood. Right. Got it. Well, it's, it's impressive what you did with Amazon. And I'm going to move on to the next two roles where senior manager, global talent, life sciences, then global talent for director or director of global talent for new evasive, and then director of global talent for Intuit. So you had some, there's those three companies right there. Two in the,

life sciences and then one in the, you know, in tech and software. How would you compare the experience that you saw for veterans at those organizations? Night and day, you know, one, none of those had dedicated military recruiting. They didn't go to job fairs and much harder because of the technical requirements of the roles, the amount of...

specific needs to get to a level, you know, but that's a problem. I think with a lot of industries is You know, if you're a veteran getting out say you need to make 120 I'll just throw a number out there well 120 happens to be the average of your MBA with a technical bachelor's degree and So you did a bunch of deployments and you've got a liberal arts from an online university and you're trying to compete against these

Derek Wilson (19:01.486)
super kids that are 30 years old that can dance inside of a spreadsheet, speak fluent, rona and eboda and shareholder value, and you don't even know what that is yet. And so yeah, night and day, shifting from leadership to technical prowess, and then how to synthesize the two, how to find. So I probably did more recruiting there, and also,

pivoted my own career to not be the military guy anymore. But if you hire me, I'm going to bring some veterans with me. You can't stop it. It's an immovable force. So I probably did more of pulling veterans that had a couple of years plus of civilian experience and had acquired some technical skills, some business skills on top of their veteran background.

And then thinking about those companies, I think the Salesforce at Newvasive had probably the most veterans. That's pretty common in med device, ortho, spine, a lot of veterans, athletes make their way into that and have a phenomenal career. But yeah, the more technical, and now I'm in life sciences, right? And so Dendry on pharmaceutical is the first cellular therapy product in the world for prostate cancer.

Weird science, all men will get prostate cancer if they've lived forever. And then most recently at Asp .io with gene therapy, which is just groundbreaking stuff. The team at Asp .io has just had a major FDA read on some data for Parkinson's, which is about 13 and a half million people a year, which would be tremendous, but very few veterans, very few, unfortunately.

So when you were at those organizations and then you said you pivoted your career, not be the veterans guy anymore. And then you pivoted back to be VP, Chief of People for the Honor Foundation. I imagine there was a lot of feeling behind that. You wanna talk about that a little bit? Yeah, it was tough because the root cause of that pivot was a divorce and getting full custody of a special needs rare disease.

Derek Wilson (21:25.39)
daughter Getting remarried to Kristen Yale a lot of veterans know her because she used to coordinate the service Academy career conferences So at a job fair, I met my wife always be networking. You never know what good things happened and So yeah, so that was that was a pivot and Joe muscleman the founder of the Honor Foundation. He had a vision a really dang good vision

build the best transition program in the world for SOF because how the military mission planning, budgets, everything else, if SOF gets it right, then the rest of the military wants it. And it's exactly what's been happening. A lot of programs have been trying, been marrying Honor Foundation. Now it's eight campuses and an online university. And now under Matt Stevens leadership, it's done extremely well.

Yeah, so I think I was employee number four or five out of a small closet in UCSD. We started with mostly Navy SEALs down in Coronado, quickly grew it to enablers and operators. So the supporting cast, JTAX, Joint Tactical Air Controllers, and SRT, which is the two teams that support with Intel and former frogs who do Intel and analysis and mission planning.

and other things. And then the Raider community came in and then Army Soft, which is where I am now here in Carolina, we're like, hey, hey, those guys got something really good and we want it too. And so now it's grown to several campuses, it's doing extremely well. So 13 week program. It's the most in -depth, intense, the instructors, the coaches, the mentors.

the senior folks that come in and out. It is the number one program out there if you can dedicate the time during your transition. So I agree with you. THF has really grown into be something great. And I think people who come through it really value what they come out with. Some members of my interview team for my research, my doctorate, had came through THF.

Derek Wilson (23:50.126)
and also through the USC and BV, but everybody had great things to say about THF. And it's part of it, you know, is the cohort model and the connections that you build within the cohort and the people that, and what you learn from the people in the cohort and being able to always rely on people in this network, you know, to listen when you reach out, to have that cup of coffee, right? And the cup of coffee lists from the THF was mentioned by two or three of the people that I interviewed for research.

It's impressive. And the only thing about it that's, I don't say negative, but it's like, I wish it was available to all forces, right? And it's paving the path. And there are many that are being created and it's the need of getting this to be more available to more people. And that was one of the recommendations of my dissertation as well, was to increase the lessons learned from these, leverage them over to other programs and increase programs like this so that...

where people can be part of them. Well, I think you nailed it. 32 years ago, Bezos created the vision of same day shipping all SKUs one day, you know? And so I think Musselman and the board had that vision of if we build it, everyone will want it. Once we prove it's good and show the results and have real data, that's the problem with most transitioning programs is they didn't have data.

Yeah, I think, you know, a THF is not a job placement machine either. I think that's a whole shift in paradigm. It's wasn't about finding guys jobs. It was about finding their fulfillment. If you wanted to start a company, if you wanted to get into the agency and blow all the exams away, if you wanted to get into USC, you know, we were going to help you achieve whatever your fulfillment.

was it wasn't to get a job. And so I think that's, you know, when veterans finally grasp that and figure that out and behold, you don't have to go get a job at least right away. It really changes the game. So I think that's one of the key features of THF that it needs to be extrapolated more to other organizations that that you're you're coached or you're pseudo forced into finding yourself a little bit before you dedicate your career search, right?

Derek Wilson (26:17.614)
understanding what's going to make you happy and where you can be successful and not just what you were prescribed to go do by the military, by your mom and dad growing up, by your friends that say that you're a veteran, you're an ABC, you're supposed to like going to go be a cop. Maybe you don't want to go be a cop or whatever that job is that you were prescribed to go do. That self -discovery is important and I don't think it is integrated into the TAP program that's given to everybody as they get out.

No, it still isn't. I've been screaming at, you know, as an HR professional and corporate, we leverage Hogan assessments, scallop strengths, predictive indexes. We do 360s at key points in your career. I mean, those tools have been around. The military uses tools they've used, you know, desk profiling, ENF, TJ, all that kind of stuff. For decades, it came out of the Air Force, all the original science. And

You know, it's a shame. Yeah, I wish I had it. A lot of THF was based on scar tissue from others and quite a bit of scar tissue for me. My career is rife with mistakes and oopsies. And you know, you mentioned into it, that was a friend that created a role for me. And so a lot of lessons there and it was a consulting role. I didn't own the team, own budget. I had no autonomy to make stuff happen. I had to convince others.

And I'm not a consultant. If you read all my assessments professionally, you would say, my god, Phil's going to fail real fast in that job. And I did. I wasn't great at it. It's probably the worst performance of my professional career. But if I had taken those assessments, had a coach, and had somebody like you or me whispering in your ear, don't do it, don't do it, I think I would have probably not gone there.

Well, there's three big things that make you happy at work. Autonomy, mastery, and purpose. Right? You hit the one, autonomy. If you didn't have any autonomy, you just had no autonomy. With your career, you had the influence and the ability to go make things happen that if you no longer have that, you're going to struggle. And it makes sense. That's something that veterans, we got to know what it is that we're going to need at work. And usually it's those three things. Yeah. I think all veterans getting out before they get out, they should invest. It's usually just a couple hundred dollars.

Derek Wilson (28:44.878)
Invest in a professional assessment tool. There are many. I like all of them for different reasons. And find a coach. I don't need another veteran to tell me to wear a red tie, how to shake hands. I don't need another opinion about resumes. I hate resumes. Resume has nothing to do with it, in my humble opinion. And everyone's got an opinion on it. I'm sorry.

I've looked at probably more resumes than most in the world and most of those opinions are dead wrong. And so, like I need to know what, who am I, what am I good at? Who should I, you know, where should I go to get the true expertise? Because I didn't even know people like executive coaches. I didn't know that I should know who the executive search professionals in my craft are. I didn't know that I should be studying.

the local business journal every single day or who to follow, who are the thought leaders and how important that was. I didn't know any of that stuff until well into my civilian career. And I think to be candid, I also think that's really why more veterans, and I think veterans can get a job now pretty easily. Well, maybe not this year's tough times out there, but for the most part,

There's so many good programs and now employers finally kind of understand it. Job fairs are full of employers. The problem is not a lot of veterans are getting the VP SVP EBP level. And a lot of these huge companies and tech and life sciences, they don't have the Don Gimano's for the Jim Atkins at the top quietly opening the door for a few to come in and get things established. And,

Yeah, I think that's a tremendous problem. I think a lot of veterans get to manager director level on sheer hustle work ethic, get shit done, a lot of good stuff. But it's kind of like, I don't know, maybe it's like becoming a command E9 or or Colonel, the game, the game shifts for sure. Well, so you're you're you're absolutely right here. And I just put up my dissertation to actually poke myself.

Derek Wilson (31:07.214)
Research has shown that some white Vietnam veterans face a 15 % wage penalty in 1980s, that's from Angers 1990, while in 2019, white male veterans in the 90th percentile of earnings were paid 26 % less than their non -veteran peers. And black veterans only received a wage premium in the lower 50 % of earners. And that's from several authors that's referenced in my dissertation. So what you're experiencing is real and it's documented and it's quantified. So.

When I hit this same kind of thing at a different level, I was like, what is happening here? So you mentioned earlier that you're currently looking for a role, looks like since January, 2023, and with this impressive career, you should be able to land these roles. And I think that, you know, with what you've described here and all your experience, talk a little bit about hitting that SVP, EVP wall as a veteran. Yeah, I think a lot of it is...

Once you get to the top, the relationships matter way more than anything else. And so I have built a career on connecting with other veterans, even as recently as Dindriyan, the CEO that brought me in, Jim Casciano was a former army tanker. And so we hit it off real nicely in the interview process. AskBio was really the first one where,

had no veteran connections, none. In fact, that was scary for me. And so, you know, always challenge yourself and do something awkward. Moving from San Diego to North Carolina was just as scary and awkward. And then going to a company where I knew nobody and there were no other veterans, that was about the scariest thing I've ever done. But I think in my job search now, I went on a sabbatical for a while.

And I've been really hitting it hard for about six months. And I've never had to hit it hard in my career. I've always had a network. The problem is my network has been military. And so that's, again, my failures I pass on. Luckily, thanks to guys like you who put me on podcasts, is at some point, if you want to go beyond a director level, you got to stop being the one in rooms of other veterans or other peers.

Derek Wilson (33:34.414)
And you got to start putting yourself in rooms of CEOs, investors, VC, private equity. You got to become a thought leader in your industry. And, you know, and then it becomes those relationships and who, you know, we say it all the time, but really, and the tech and the science and the global business world absolutely is. and you know, I think too, with head hunters and search firms and those third party folks.

Same thing, I should have started building relationships and network outside of the veteran circle a long time ago. And I've always been known as the military guy, even though technically I haven't been the military guy for a long time. It's still my brand. And so I kind of blew it. If I can go back 10 years, about when I pivoted out of Amazon, I should have shifted and done a better job.

Well, it's a common thing to be known for what you're, you know, been good at and being the veteran guy is something that something that, you know, a lot of us struggle with and to thank you for being so open and honest and sharing that with us here. And it's not just about being the veteran guy in an organization. I think some veterans are kind of pivoting a little bit here, but some veterans get stuck in being the veteran guy as in that that's their, that's their personality, that's her position. And then they struggle to find employment outside of companies that only hire veterans.

So I'm not saying that's the same thing, but it's a situation where, you know, we have to overcome that. And I feel like you're doing a great job overcoming it. Yet I don't, I mean, the advice for finding a role right now is, it's a tough market, right? And you are at the top of this pyramid of skill level and experience. You know, you're competing with, you're competing for a very few jobs that are being.

targeted by many people and it's it's extremely tough. Yeah and you know companies the laws and the rules are changing as well and I think it's good just put a little scare into most of your audiences. I'm a 51 year old white guy looking for a head of HR job in a world where companies are trying to sell or go public and so by going public 25 % of the board

Derek Wilson (36:00.526)
and the reflection of the board. And trust me, I believe in a diverse workforce. I think some of those laws have made strides in a positive direction. That's my heart speaking, but my gosh, the last six months, I'm like, wow, it's really tough. And so I think too in career planning, I had a phenomenal like written out. In fact, many people have seen my fishbone.

what I drafted when I was 32, by the time I was 50, I was going to be in a C -suite for a global company, changing how we live or saving lives is exactly what it says. And I got there. And so I believe in manifestation of vision boards and writing your goals down, revisiting them, sharing them with everybody, sharing them with your mentors and your coaches over the years and your teams and your boss. And...

And so I had that. What I didn't have is what do I do if I get there? And so now I'm 51, a couple divorces under my belt, like a good sailor, and, you know, been married for 10 years happily. And now I know I've got to work for another 20 years. What am I going to do for the next 20 years? I have no idea. So here I am. I should scare the heck out of everyone. I'm a CHRO, supposed to be a professional and helping others.

And I don't have a plan, not yet anyway. It's kind of rough, but I don't have it written down for the next 20 years. So don't be me at 50. Well, thank you for being so open here. You know, it's part of the ongoing transition, I think, that we get to live through as veterans, right? You've transitioned out very well. You had an impressive career. Now you're in another transition going into what's next for you. And, you know, it's...

going backwards in time, you know, a lot of people who, when they first get out there at that stage, well, do I go and work for somebody or do I go and become an entrepreneur? Have you thought anything about what kind of entrepreneurial space would be exciting for you? Yeah, absolutely. And I've met many people over the years that said, Phil, you should do your own thing. I think a lot of folks would enjoy working with me or for me. At least that's what I've been told. So good feedback there, but.

Derek Wilson (38:19.246)
Again Recycling to one of my wives one of mine and this is tough as a veteran. I think this is important conversation I have it a lot with THF fellows Is I have a special needs rare disease daughter and he's platinum benefits package and I and I need to get paid very well And so one of my motivators has always been money Not that I'm a greedy son of a gun. I could have gone to Wall Street and probably done better, but it is always front of mind because I

you know, the bills, right? And so, you know, until that's done, I'm kind of hamstrung. It's important to think about too, a lot of veterans come out and they're at a point where they've told their families, got young kids, that they're gonna spend more time with the family, but then they wanna go work somewhere like an Amazon or a Facebook or wherever. And trust me, man, when I say that those employers,

You'll actually travel more, at least this is my experience and many others. You'll travel more and put more hours into work than you did in the military. And some folks are like, yeah, Phil, you're full of it. No, I swear to you. I swear to you. I didn't have black cards when I was in the military. I had black cards for 15 years after the military, which is a million miles plus a year, yada, yada, yada. And so you've got to really...

Get clear on what do you want versus what do you have to do? What's the right thing to do? And the guys that don't do that well with their families openly and transparently typically get divorced. So there you go. You have to get, sometimes it's what you can't do or what you don't want to do. It provides more clarity than what you want to do. You brought up a couple of great points there, Phil. One of them about,

you know, the hours you work at organizations that are out there after you get out like Amazon, I know folks that have gone in there as leaving the military as junior officers and then attested to working more hours, harder labor than they ever had in their entire life and then getting burned out and going elsewhere. So with the current situation, you're in a good spot to talk about, you know, so usually the nonprofits that exist,

Derek Wilson (40:39.182)
And there are people who are just getting out or have just gotten out new veterans, young veterans, entry level roles. If you're, you know, for the, for the enlisted folks earlier, you mentioned you guys were going to hiring fairs, getting senior enlisted and officers. But so how does somebody like yourself, who are you getting help from at this space? Like what nonprofits are able to help you or provide you some, some career, some career advice or career help? How do you, how do you coach the coach? Yeah.

At this point, there are no non for profit so help build a Atlanta job and unless I know a board member and they happen to you know be representing an employer. But there are plenty of people out there. I am don't feel too bad for me. I've been a master of going to companies that get sold. And when you have equity and when you're owned by a European based company that

the severance and the package at that point of sale or the point of activity, equity moment we call it, can be a life changer. And so I literally just had a year and three months off that I've never had in my entire life. I've never had more than two weeks off in my entire life. So we went to Scotland, Ireland, went to my 25th reunion in Annapolis, family reunion in Seattle.

which is where I was born and raised in Woodby Island Naval Air Station. And, you know, got a time share. We did all kinds of crazy stuff. So don't, yeah, don't feel bad for me. Which is another topic is how do you, how do you find moments? Like for me at the Honor Foundation, that did not feel like work. That was a blessing that Joe gave me and Hal and the board working with those guys for two years. That didn't feel like work at all. And so how do you have those?

in your life. I strongly recommend when I'm talking to peers who are burning out and there's almost everyone is look for a non for profit. Go teach if you have a master's degree, go teach for a couple of years at a college. You know, take us about a goal, burn some savings, better burn it now than dying of a heart attack and not and not using it. And so I'm, you know, at this point, my

Derek Wilson (43:01.582)
Help my support our former bosses. Luckily, I've had some amazing ones that are standing in my corner ready. I'm also at an age where I'm being extremely picky. Unfortunately, I see a lot of bad leadership, a lot of bad investments, a lot of bad stuff out there right now. All the layoffs prove it. You know, the lack of accountability for how that all happened, but...

And so I'm looking for a very specific thing, one more big equity moment and a phenomenal CEO that really understands people and the importance of leadership. It sounds simple, but it's kind of hard to find. Sounds very hard to find for sure. Yeah, it's getting harder too right now. I think a lot of the founders, a lot of the brilliant ones, you look at Jeff, you look at Elon, Steve.

the founder of Apple, they are not people you want to work for. Like Brutal, you know, the Antichrist, the anti -leadership book of how originally, I think, at least Jeff has pivoted and softened, I don't think Elon has. It's getting worse. But yeah, you know, these are brilliant people now with PhDs.

Brilliant technology, the world is moving faster. The average lifespan of a company is five to seven years now. And a lot of pressure from the equity holders, shareholders, VC, PE to get it done and to make money. And the companies where you can go and be really good at your job, like go to Ford or go to an IBM and just be good. Those jobs are going fast.

and so you have to get really good at being prepared for what could happen to you, what could happen to your company, get really good at trying to read the tea leaves, before you pick, pick an opportunity. I think that's a whole section that not even, you know, I teach that at THF and, and my, my presentation has evolved, but, even that is that's, that's magic.

Derek Wilson (45:25.614)
There's no science. There's no read this book and you'll crush it there that that tell me a book out there that says how to pick your next opportunity. I don't think anyone has quite figured that out.

Derek Wilson (45:41.902)
Everybody has their own opinions about how to get your next job, what to put on your resume, how to do all those things. And part of the problem is that everybody has their own different way about it. And they're not in control when your company sells a year after you join in. Right. You know, when the interview and the CEO shows you the piece of paper that says we're independent, don't worry, nothing's going to happen. And then a year later, it all changes. But what do you do?

You can sometimes, sometimes a tornado hits and you're not mother nature. You gotta roll the punches, right?

so let's change gears a little bit. And I'm asked you a bit about, what you had saw or what you've seen from, you know, not only all your roles in HR, but then also at the honor foundation about veterans actually using nonprofit help. The research says that about 60 % of veterans seek resume help from nonprofits. I did my research and I said, Hey, you know, what, one of the requirements was you had to have used a nonprofit for resume support. And only about 10 % of my respondents had. So.

You're in there some variables here that I was only really recruiting only 10 and the average rank of my respondent was an E7 verse I thought it was gonna be like, you know, before we five. So we, we have problems asking for help right as veterans do, but I'm very interested in curious about this 50 % gaps and what I found was what's out there right now. What do you think.

This is a big topic and I'll try to touch on a couple of things quickly. This is something I could talk hours about. One, I've learned to be a little critical. You talk about USC, MBV, you go to USC because of the caliber of staff, the quality of the students in your cohort that are sitting around you, and the quality of the material and what you're exposed to based on the USC's ecosystem, right?

Derek Wilson (47:42.542)
Well, when you get out of the military, you got to be careful of who's giving you all the advice. Is it somebody who has crushed it in the civilian corporate world, and they're the one telling you what your LinkedIn profile and resume should look like? Or is it somebody who barely made E7 or EA, and they're a consultant for the lowest bidder, and they're up front in the class telling you how to tie a red tie, and that's still a requirement in 2024? I want to punch that guy in the face.

So, you know, you got to eat real, but veterans don't think that way because you're hungry for help. And there's so many, you know, non -for -profits, so many former vets, so many non -profits in the veterans' base, 50 ,000 at least so many good, like they're all good people. And so I have to be a little tempered and insane how I really feel about them all because you know, quite, quite a few helped me in my journey, but.

It's like you want to start a company, you're not going to talk to folks that have never done it before. And so that was one of the genesis that Joe had and the Honor Foundation as well is we're going to surround these guys and women with true experts like Simon Sinek in discovering your why. Joe Sweeney, bestselling author, networker, extraordinaire in networking as a contact sport.

Like, go find the very best in each of the 20 -plus modules and listen to those people. Because I'd rather listen to Simon than some old retired guy about, it's so important you get an elevator pitch. No, it's not. It's important that when I get in front of Sheila McHale, the founder of AskBio, I talk about my daughter's disease, knowing that Sheila has the same disease. Like, that's what got me the job.

So don't tell me to wear a red tie and what to do with my resume. Huge difference, big difference, much different. And so I say that. So that's one topic. Another topic is, my gosh, there's some really good ones out there. Commit and 4Block and THF and Veterati and ACP. And I'm sorry if I'm leaving some out, but I'm a huge fan.

Derek Wilson (50:06.03)
of 20, 30 of these organizations that have recruited true expertise. The boards are very impressive. Their thought process, and they're all different. And so like, you know, if you're a team guy and you want to get a scholarship, you know, the SEAL fund and the family foundation and Navy SEAL foundation, go there. THF doesn't hand out scholarships, right?

And so, like each one has its own flavor. And if, you know, if I can, if I was transitioning out now, I would say you got to gear out one, push your, your personnel detail or command to get your relief in early. I think some commands, some branches of service do a better job. And as soon as you know when they're coming, start, start shopping and.

you know, why not do three or four of those non -for -profits because they do all offer something different. Like I would go to ACP or Vetterati, get a couple of mentors. I'd go to Elite Meet, go to some events and start doing my cups of coffee. I'd go to commit, get some one -on -one, maybe do an assessment. Then I would determine whether I can give so much of the, you know, 14 weeks to THF. You know, I think there's...

Yeah, it's like if you're building a house or building a car, you know, maybe you have three or four key people that are gonna run everything for you, but there's really 20 or 30 different organizations or providers that really make it all the way to the end. So the good news is you got LinkedIn and some of these other platforms where if you just get the guts to start reaching out to old dudes like me,

I'll share my scar tissue. I'm not the only one to say, hey, think, you know, think about the start of year early and here's some good contacts for you to start with. That was great. And I want to bring up one of the great points you mentioned there. And it was, it's really about just not throwing your resume over the fence and doing some Intel, right? We're in the military. We're great about figuring things out whenever we're on a mission, right? And people, when you're looking for a job, you're on a mission, you know, find out who.

Derek Wilson (52:27.822)
your hiring managers, maybe find out who else is there, who's going to be on the interview team and learn things about them. Stop their LinkedIn profile, figure out what you can. That way you have something to talk about that you can make the connection with the individuals when you get in the room. Because we tend to forget you're going to go interview with other humans. They have stories, right? It's in the military, we're taught to stand there during our, during the NCO board or whatever it is you're doing, you know, I straight ahead, thousand yards, there's no questions, there's no answers and don't say anything.

That's not what you want to do when you go to interview as a civilian, but they don't necessarily teach. They may tell you that at TAPS class on the way out the door, but they don't actually instill it in your teacher how to go figure it out. Yeah. You just reminded me a couple tangible items. I think one's important and a little provocative. And I'm not going to come off as well as I hope, I'm sure, but a little bit of entitlement out there too, only because I think veterans don't know better. Somehow they come out and they think the world owes them a job.

that everything should be free. We ran into that in early days of the Honor Foundation. Like, what do you mean you're gonna charge me? Well, yeah, you know what you're gonna get, you know? And so, you know, I've had executive coaches over the years. I go buy books that make me better. I pay for my subscription in the business journal. You know, the assessments cost a couple hundred bucks to sit down with an executive coach.

for three or four sessions, which is just a nice baseline, get a good start, which I think everyone should do, I think about 1 ,500 bucks. And so, put it all together for five grand. If I were in your ear and doing everything I told you to do, your last year in the military, you're gonna spend about 5K and you're gonna crush it when you come out. So it's funny, because when I've...

told people this or, no, Phil, that should all be free. Like, no, it's not how the world works. And it's kind of like that funny cartoon with the horse. It's kind of like crayon, kid scratch. And there's a line that says, the boss said, cut the budget and the rest of the horse is beautifully drawn like a painting. You get what you pay for. And welcome to the world. So you bring up a very important topic, this

Derek Wilson (54:52.942)
actually in Congress recently or is now, and it was just posted by the veteran of the sign guy on Instagram, where there's the battle where some of the traditional nonprofits like the VFW, some of the congressionally chartered nonprofits are saying no to this pay for VA disability filing help, no, don't go pay for career support, all these things. And it kind of comes back to the idea of

Do you go to a public school for free or do you use resources to go to private school to get what you want? But there's a legal battle right now over organizations that veterans pay to get better VA disability filing versus going to the VFW or the DAV and getting it done for free. And it's a big to do. So what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, that's opening legal worms. One, you're mandated, you're paid. Are you, you know, are we holding the VA accountable?

that, you know, it's like in the civilian world, you know, patients pay to have their Parkinson's cured. Are we doing it or not? And if we're not, we're not going to be a company anymore, right? And so there definitely needs to be accountability on those organizations. Now, if you're butthurt and you're VFW and American Legion, and you've sat by and you've watched thousands of other non -for -profits grow because you're not doing your job, then that's your problem. That's the veteran.

Is better off today than they were when I got out. I swear to God Like proved me wrong You know the amount of awesome materials resources non -for -profits and just the world in general being acceptance to hiring a veteran now is a thousand times better than 2004 20 years ago and probably a thousand times better than when my dad got out

So yeah, those guys need to do their job until they do it and do it extremely well. There's going to be those that fill the gap. That's welcome to capitalism. So I'm supportive of the non -for -profits, as you can tell. And yeah, they're not all awesome. Some of them end up in court because they take the money. You've got to be smart enough as a vet, just like researching an MBA program.

Derek Wilson (57:16.398)
You gotta see, you know, are they GuideStar certified? How much of a donation dollar goes to the person it's supposed to go to versus, you know, the whole, there's been a few famous veteran non -for -profits where the CEO is making 500K and they're flying around in a jet. I'm not good with those. So. Yeah, that's a whole, that's a whole another episode that we should probably do sometime because.

That's part of the things I discovered in my research that there is a lot of money coming into this space that doesn't get spent appropriately. And it comes back to metrics and how prove that you're doing what you say you're doing by showing me the veterans and their salaries that yes, I use your organization and it worked and my salary is now 125 % of what it was when I started and I'm happy and this was a real deal because I don't think we see enough of the real life stories and the true stories. I'm a critic of the metrics that exist now.

I'm a critic of how our current unemployment rate is configured. The federal government calls 60 ,000 households and then other people who answer the phone and stay on the call, they get less than 200 veterans. So that three point, whatever number you see as veteran unemployment is based on the less than 200 people who've not only answered that phone call, but stayed on to answer the questions for the whole survey. None of us do that. So those are the people who are creating our unemployment numbers. Yeah.

I'll tell you, you know, this is kudos to Joe Musselman when he started the Admiral out of WarCom, called him to the carpet and you know, Joe's not a retiree or anything. So he can't just walk onto the base. So he got called to the carpet with a bunch of scary senior dudes in the room. He's like, who are you? What are you doing? And why are you messing with my guys? And then three years later, the Admiral came through the program. So.

You know, it all starts, like you said, like Amazon, right? Amazon didn't spend a single dollar on marketing for the first 10 years. It was just word of mouth. And so I think the good programs, like same commit, you don't see commit all over the place. I'll tell you, it's a phenomenal program because I've talked to a couple hundred dudes that have gone through it and have said it's a phenomenal program. And so I think that's the key. If you're looking at programs, you're looking at resources, don't just...

Derek Wilson (59:38.798)
Blindly believe what you see on the website and don't just talk to one of your friends, you know treat it like You're picking your MBA program do your diligence and if you don't see those reports if you don't Hear that in the network Then it might not be as good as you hope it is Great answer. We got a few minutes left here change gears on you again, you know Napoleon hired for luck and

Dr. Richard Wiseman does a lot of research about luck. I'm going to bring him on the show, hopefully. And so we hear a lot of complaining about, I got bad luck with this. I don't get that. And I'm not saying you can change your luck at the blackjack table in Vegas, but I think that there's proof that you can change your luck in terms of talking to people in the grocery store line, talking to people at the bank, trying new things, going to new events. What do you think about luck in the employment process? I don't even know.

is, you know, I grew up poor. The first of my family to get a degree. I don't gamble. I just work my ass off. And, you know, I get up early in the morning, I spent about an hour over a cup of coffee, reading between five and 10 different sources of information. And it's, it's never ending. And a lot of the same.

Traits and same work ethic and same cycle I had in the military made made me fairly successful there as well. And so I don't I don't know You know, let me say preparation What's the phrase preparation plus something is luck Luck favors the prepared something like that. Yeah, I'm not into any of that if you're you know again if you're resting on your laurels waiting for somebody to come and grab your hand and

It's a high it's getting more competitive this year is the most competitive This year is the most competitive job market. I've ever seen since getting out in four and You know I've been in a lot of different industries living in a lot of different cities is brutal right now and so The amount of mean companies are laying off thousands not just a few and there's some really good talent

Derek Wilson (01:02:03.214)
There was a job I really wanted out of the Bay Area, the next generation gene therapy, and they had 3000 applicants for a CHRO job. Like, holy cow. And you had to be willing to live in the Bay Area. Like, so, that'll probably get me in trouble, but I'll stand behind it. And if I was willing to do it, because that's one of my dream jobs is to go to the next.

kind of a nerd, like I want to go to the next thing. I'm kind of the same way, you're right, in terms of what's next, what's part of the future to be excited about, right? Yeah. We got a couple minutes left and I don't want to take up too much of your time. You mentioned assessments and you're a fan of them. I do want to share one with you that's part of my product. Have you ever heard of IWAM, Individual Work Attitudes and Motivations from Job EQ out of Switzerland? No, I haven't.

So I was coached from this model by Dr. Carl Harshman in General Atomics' leadership program years ago. And it changed my life. And it's proprietary information. And he, Dr. Carl Harshman, controls this product in North America and South America. Other people have it elsewhere. But when I got out and I applied the AI to the resume situation that I have, I wanted to apply AI to his coaching as well. And then I figured out through him that,

Dr. Michelle Duvall out of Australia had already done that in a company called Fingerprint for Success. And it's actually, it took a few 15, 20 questions. And then right now you get right into your results. It helps you analyze them, tells you what it means, and you go right into the program. Whereas when I went through it years ago, you did the assessment, you had to wait for Dr. Harshman to come to your facility. He was there once a month for a week. You got one hour with him in that week.

You know, about 15 minutes of the hour was spent just catching up and then 45 minutes on coaching you. So it's a great program. I'll send you a link to give it a shot, see what you think about it. I think I love it. I love all assessments. I'm a big fan of multiple and I've probably touched more than 20. I think Hogan assessment is the most used and executive high level coaching, predictive index, gallop strengths. I know the Honor Foundation leans on gallop strengths.

Derek Wilson (01:04:22.222)
A lot of company, I think it's very similar predictive index, similar science, but that's awesome. I'll tell you the best assessment I ever got, the most accurate one was when the HR, the director of talent management job was offered to me after I'd been building houses. And I love building houses. I'd still be out there in the desert building houses if nobody cared about me. Guy was good at it and I loved it. And I made pretty good money doing it. And they're like,

You know, one was a, is now a retired two star and the other is a retired one star. And they were kind of, you know, very close to me. I'd worked with them for many years and they, you know, also understood the civilian world. There's going to be a punchline to this is shut up, Phil. You have no idea how good and how natural of an HR leader you are. Just shut up and do it. We know you better than you know yourself.

And so that key moment, I realized how important it is to surround yourself with folks like that, that know you very well, that won't just fluff your feathers and tell you that you're awesome. And they'll tell you to shut up and listen in those key moments of your life. Like that was such a gift and that was almost 20 years ago. And I gotta say, a career in HR is, although all the zigs and zags has been an absolute blessing.

the amount of lives, the amount of good I've been able to do with my jobs. I don't look back on it negatively at all. So I'm anxious to see what the next chapter brings and to continue hopefully to open doors for other veterans. Well, you've had a very impressive career and you've opened lots of doors to lots of veterans already with being able to be in companies that where you could teach your hiring managers how to hire veterans and what you did with the Honor Foundation.

that's spectacular being, you know, early in on that and creating this spectacular organization. So I want to thank you for all those things. And thank you for being here today. And hopefully I have you on again soon. Thanks, Dr. Do. Appreciate you. Cheers, man.